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How heavy are your boxes?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20964		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Ken Jones [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  How heavy are your boxes?
I just closed the box on my latest build -- it's a cocobolo and sitka Grand Auditorium-style guit, which I'm really excited about. Probably because there have been no disastrous missteps so far. :roll:
Anyway, I know the coco is dense, but it seems quite heavy. I haven't thinned the lower bout yet, but I doubt that'll make much of a difference. The sides were thicknessed to about .085 as I recall, and the back comes in around .095. I weighed it on our digital bathroom scale, and it came in at 3.0 lbs.

Is this heavy, or am I just imagining things?

Ken
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
I'd say for a Coco guitar, that's not to bad, maybe a bit on the heavy side, but that doesn't mean anything really.

The last guitar I made came in (including neck, bridge, tuners, etc...) at 3.8 lbs. That was maple and cedar though.

I wouldn't get hung up to much on weight. That can just drive you crazy.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Pay more attention to the top, bracing and bridge. That's where it really matters. Weigh each component and compare the results (tone, volume and sustain) to subsequent builds. Setting up the bracing and top to move and respond efficiently is the goal we're after.

"It's not how light you make it...it's how you make it light"...Mario said that! <BG>

"Have fun and just build lots of guitars"...I said that! <BSEG>
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
<BSEG> laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

JJ has good advise.
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
A Mahogany/Lutz 00 I'm working on right now I weighed the body (done, but no finish) and it is 2.12 lbs.
Author:  Darrin D Oilar [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Cherry and redwood with the bridge on, 2 lbs 8.8 oz.

Darrin
Author:  jmanter [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Ken,I closed up the box on a cocobolo/sitka dread yesterday and I have the same issue. It feels like it weighs a ton (haven't weighed it yet though...)

Justin
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
jmanter wrote:
Ken,I closed up the box on a cocobolo/sitka dread yesterday and I have the same issue. It feels like it weighs a ton (haven't weighed it yet though...)

Justin

Whoa, what're the odds? That's pretty wild. If you get a chance, I'd love to know how much it weighs.

Sounds like most others are coming in well under 3lbs. I know the weight is secondary to the actual resonance, but I just wonder if the weight is indicative of some other error in judgement. What's typical back/side thickness for cocobolo?
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Ken bro I don't think that anyone is willing to say that a heavier guitar can't sound as good or better than a lighter guitar - certainly not me. Think Pavarotti..... :D

Your box does seem heavy to me though again not that this will be a problem. My latest OM the box was under 2 pounds.

I like to think of guitar weight this way: A more massive guitar may require more energy to drive it. I say may because it depends on many things working for you or at times unfortunately against you. If the guitar is very responsive regardless of the weight it will be very responsive.

Here is something entirely subjective to try and I do this with every guitar that I build. Hold the box on it's back balancing it with just your finger tips. Kind of like if you are delivering a pizza which is a good thing to practice if you plan on being a career Luthier in this economy...... :D Then have someone talk at normal volume from the other side of the room. Can you feel the vibrations of their voice in your finger tips? Yes - very cool! No well this does not mean anything anyway so no worries. ;)

To me a great guitar is a sum of it's great parts that hopefully work in a sympathetic manner with each other. I'll bet that you will be pretty happy with this box once it's mated to a neck and strung up.

Weighing parts as you build may make you crazy but not if you are already nuts - trust me - I know..... laughing6-hehe :D
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
I thin cocobolo at .070" for the sides before bending, and I've been as low as .065" for the back. Typically I wouldn't go over .080" for the back. If I want a more reflective back I brace it accordingly. There is much weight to be gained there.
That being said a heavier back and rim may translate into a pretty powerful instrument, and perhaps great sounding too.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Ken...before we start becoming overly concerned and before this becomes an unnecessary pissing contest, consider the fact that the average density of Cocobolo is significantly greater than that of Mahogany...so it will always weigh a lot more than a comparably-sized Mahogany guitar.

Dalbergia retusa (Cocobolo)= 69 lbs/cu. ft.
Sweitenia macrophylla (Honduras Mahogany) = 36 lbs/cu. ft.
Dalbergia latifolia (East Indian Rosewood) = 53 lbs/cu.ft.

I'm in the process of building a Cocobolo Dread and the braced back alone weighs 480 grams...that's over a pound just for the back at .080" and I brace quite lightly. Similar sized backs made from Mahogany have weighed well under half a pound.

It's the top, man...spend your effort on the top!

"Choose the back and sides with your eyes...choose the top with your ears"...lots of smart builders have said that over the years.

Hesh is right...your guitar will probably sound great because you are concerned about excess weight already...just don't obsess about it in the wrong places.
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Seems like we all have this goal and focus of building light. I include myself in that, as I (at least currently) find myself in the responsive back camp. Maybe just because it's so cool to feel a guitar vibrating against you when you play. Just makes you "feel" as if it must be a good guitar. BUT....nothing says a heavy guitar can't sound great. Where do we get that? (Anyway, "great" being so subjective.) If a builder in more in the "reflective back" camp, his (or her) guitars will likely be heavier. Stiffer sides, thicker backs, even doubled or tripled laminates. Ever play some of the older Guilds? Some of those old guitars were killer, but they were built like tanks. Bryan Kimsey is known for hotrodding those old Guilds a little and making monsters out of them, though I've yet to play one of his mods. As has been noted, the primary focus should be on the top. There are even a lot of solid top/plywood guitars out there that can really surprise you. (Not that I'm advocating building with plywood, just making a broad reference.)

I may just have to go against the grain and start building my guitars heavier just for the heck of it. Sometimes you just gotta be a rebel. ;)
Author:  ChuckB [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
The last box I closed was an OM. Curly cherry and redwood, weighed 2lbs 6oz.

Chuck
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Thanks, everyone for the input and encouraging words -- I'm not all that concerned about the weight itself, I just want to be sure I'm using thicknesses that are appropriate to the types of woods being used.

I scraped and sanded the sides, then sanded the lower bout of the top, and all I can say is she seems to be very lively and drum-like when I tap the top. Oh, and Hesh, I haven't tried the hold-it-like-a-pizza, voice-across-the-room test yet, but I can definitely feel the vibrations of my own voice on the back. Also, it definitely resonates with a particular pitch, though I haven't determined what that is yet.

All interesting stuff.

Oh, Chuck, is that weight the box only, or does it include the neck?

Ken
Author:  ChuckB [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Ken, 2lbs 6oz was the box only, total weight finished and strung up is 4lbs 4oz. Not the lightest, but sounds great, and very loud, so I am happy!.....just recently put the picture as my avatar to the left.

Chuck
Author:  michaelt [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Enough talk laughing6-hehe ... where's the pictures? bliss bliss
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
Here ya go!
Author:  Danny R. Little [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How heavy are your boxes?
I didn't weigh my first guitar. The friend I made it for took it to a friend of his that repairs guitars who liked the look, but thought it was overbuilt. He told him anything over 3 lbs is too much.

While I was building it, I read or heard that the piston test was to light a match and hold it above the sound hole. Tap the lower bout between the bridge and lower edge. If it blows out the match you're good. (don't drop the match!)

All that said my next is going to be lighter.

Danny R. Little
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