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Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20953		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I'm running low on 5" 8 hole hook and loop discs for my ROS's. I would appreciate any recommendations you all might have for a great sandpaper. I use the ROS's mostly for sanding bare wood, but, as you know, some of the resinous/oily woods we use can cause loading problems. So, I want paper that is resistant to loading. I also want a grit that stays sharp for a long time. I'd rather pay more and throw away less paper - within reason. I'm looking at Klingspor papers on this site -

http://www.woodworkingshop.com/cgi-bin/ ... roup=DISCS

...and there are a lot of choices I was not previously aware of. I emailed these folks, and they recommended the stearate paper. Maybe that's as good a choice as any for my purposes, or maybe they were trying to suggest the most "economical" choice. I have heard some warnings about the stearate stuff contaminating the wood and causing problems with some finishes. Is that a real concern? Beyond that, would you recommend one of these other types of paper as being longer-lasting enough (or better performing in any other way) to make it well worth the higher price? I wonder if their "heavyweight", "alumina zirconia", "gold", or "tru-blu" papers might be a better choice?

The other thing I'd appreciate help with is selecting the best paper for leveling frets. I use adhesive backed paper stuck to a level for this. Some papers I've tried dull very quickly on frets. I could keep trying different papers until I find what works best for this, but it could save me a lot of time and trouble if one of you knows exactly what would be the best paper for this. Especially if I get into using stainless steel frets. Right now I use regular nickel silver and the gold "evo" stuff.

Thanks!
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd,

Try this http://mirka-online.com/products.html. I just started using them and I really like them. They're an open mesh, so they don't load at all. Haven't used them for fret work yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't work. I bought mine at Woodcraft, but they can be bought online.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I use Grizzly gold 180 for most bare wood sanding then switch to white sterated papers in 220 for final bare wood & 320 grits for sanding finish between coats. Grizzly gold 600 dry for knocking down orange peel then Mirka gold 1000 dry and finally Abralon 2000 wet prior to buffing.
Author:  Wes McMillian [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Amazingly, I was going to post the same question today, as I'm just now falling in love with my new Dynabrade. I'll be watching this topic, for sure.

Off to post another ROS question!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Does anyone know what makes "gold" papers "gold"? I don't mean why they are that color, but what they actually are that distinguishes their performance from other papers. The "gold" papers seem popular these days, and I've been using them myself, but I'm not really sold on them. I don't know...

I've got somewhat of a handle on "open coat" vs "closed coat", as well as the different paper backings that are used. I also have at least a rudimentary understanding of the presence or absence of stearate coating and what its purpose is - although, as I said above, I'm not sure about whether the stearate coating can be a bad thing with regard to possibly interfering with finish adhesion. Beyond that, though, on most of the papers I'm looking at the actual grit is aluminum oxide, whether the paper is colored/called "gold" or "tru-blu" or white, red, hot pink, purple with polka dots, royal plaid, or whatever. So, when it comes to selecting a paper that will have the longest life on hardwoods, for example, I'm so in the dark that I can't even see the different colors anyway! Reading the descriptions of the various papers on Klingspor's or Mirka's or whoever's web sites isn't doing much to enlighten me.

Can anyone shine some light on this? Or point me to a good source of truly useful information about it? Thanks!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Jimmy Caldwell wrote:
Todd,

Try this http://mirka-online.com/products.html. I just started using them and I really like them. They're an open mesh, so they don't load at all. Haven't used them for fret work yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't work. I bought mine at Woodcraft, but they can be bought online.

Jimmy, are you talking about the Abranet?
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd Rose wrote:
Jimmy Caldwell wrote:
Todd,

Try this http://mirka-online.com/products.html. I just started using them and I really like them. They're an open mesh, so they don't load at all. Haven't used them for fret work yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't work. I bought mine at Woodcraft, but they can be bought online.

Jimmy, are you talking about the Abranet?


Yes. One caveat. They don't stick very well to the hook & loop sander pad. The fiber that they use for the loop is very fine, so I only use them in horizontal applications where the weight of the sander will keep the disc from flying off.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Klingspor (stearated) is the best ROS disc that I have found. I have used Mirka, 3M, and Norton.
Author:  Clay S. [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I like Indasa rhynolox sanding discs. It has the white coating that reduces clogging. I have used Klingspor and Mirka , they are also good paper. The Rhynolox seems to last the longest.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Howard Klepper wrote:
Klingspor (stearated) is the best ROS disc that I have found. I have used Mirka, 3M, and Norton.


Thanks for your input, Howard. That's a high recommendation.

Now, when you say "best" do you mean longest lasting (dulls less quickly than others)? - best quality of sanded surface (which may reflect consistency of grain size, and possibly other factors)? - best resistance to loading? - best for bare wood? - best for sanding finishes? - all of the above?

I take it from your unqualified recommendation that you don't feel there is cause for concern about the stearate contaminating the surface and causing problems with finishing?

Thanks again!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Clay S. wrote:
I like Indasa rhynolox sanding discs. It has the white coating that reduces clogging. I have used Klingspor and Mirka , they are also good paper. The Rhynolox seems to last the longest.


Interesting, Clay. Thanks for your input. I hadn't heard of Rhynolox. I'll look into it.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Pretty much longest lasting. I haven't had any stearate issues. I don't use water-based finish, though.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd,
I don't have any recommendations on paper but I would suggest that you use a vacuum on your ROS. You may already do that but I have only recently started doing that in my work and what a difference. Sand paper lasts 2x longer and I get a better surface. I would think it would go a long way in eliminating the contamination problem with the stearated disks. (If there is a problem)
Link
Author:  Mark Ewing [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I can tell that I am going to have to change my view of sanding. I was just wondering yesterday, after about 3 or 4 hours of sanding, If any other builders hated sanding as much as I do. It sounds like I am going to have to stop going on dates with the everyday variety and bring home something more exotic. :)
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Howard Klepper wrote:
Pretty much longest lasting. I haven't had any stearate issues. I don't use water-based finish, though.


Thanks, Howard.

So, can anyone give a reasonably definitive answer on whether the stearate can cause finishing problems with waterborne finishes? Hey - I think I'll go ask that on the EmTech 6000 thread!
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Link Van Cleave wrote:
Todd,
I don't have any recommendations on paper but I would suggest that you use a vacuum on your ROS. You may already do that but I have only recently started doing that in my work and what a difference. Sand paper lasts 2x longer and I get a better surface. I would think it would go a long way in eliminating the contamination problem with the stearated disks. (If there is a problem)
Link


Thanks for that input, Link. Now, when you say the paper lasts 2x longer, do you mean that it just loads less quickly, or that it also seems to dull less quickly? My biggest frustration with sandpapers in general is how fast they dull, whether sanding by hand or with a power tool like an ROS.
Author:  Brook Moore [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd,

I have used a lot of Klingspor/Woodworking Shop sandpaper and a lot of Mirka over decades of furniture work, and was happy with both of them, both disks and sheets. When necessary, I usually wet-sanded finishes with hand blocks. However, when I began building guitars, I was sanding things that I had done little or none of in my furniture work, such as epoxy filler, and very resinous tropical woods. I wanted to get away from wet-sanding the finishes, and the Mirka gold disks and sheets were driving me crazy by loading up with corns immediately. I switched to the 3M 216u gold products and they work MUCH better for me in terms of not loading up. For non-loading jobs, I think the life span of the 216u abrasive may be slightly less than the Mirka/Klingspor disks I was using, but the trade-off is well worth it, to say the least. If you are plugged up in 10 seconds, it does not matter how long the abrasive lasts. I agree with you that the lifespan of a disk can be painfully short, but remember that its surface area is less than 1/4 of a sheet. I believe that the paper that is designed to be resistant to loading has its abrasive particles further apart, so that would explain the shorter life, but don't quote me on that. Somewhere I read that the stearate used in the 216u paper does not cause problems with waterbase finishes, but I can't verify that either. I doubt that the gold color of 216u or the other companies products is related to anything but marketing.

For fret leveling, I am just using some wet-or-dry Mirka. Works fine, but I have not used it on stainless.

Good luck,
Brook
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I emailed the folks at Klingspor's Woodworking shop. For sanding metal (frets), they recommended silicon carbide paper. For sanding bare wood with an ROS, they recommended their stearate coated aluminum oxide disks. I asked a follow up about which papers last longest, in terms of dulling, and got this response:

As for lasting and dulling least quickly that would be our
Heavyweight and Alumina Zirconia. The Heavyweight is good on wood and
can be used on metal if need be. The Alumina Zirconia will last the
longest but is very aggressive too. It will eat away at wood very
quickly. Alumina Zirconia can be used in the grinding of metal as well.
Also, the Tru-Blu discs are good for long life and performance. They are
a cloth disc. You'll find all three of those in the 5"x8 Hole disc
section.

This doesn't exactly answer all my questions about the different types of sandpapers, but it's somewhat helpful.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Thanks for your input, Brook.
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd,
I mean the paper cuts well for a longer period of time. I, like you have been frustrated by paper dulling quickly. I found by vacuuming the paper cuts longer and much more efficiently. I get a much more even scatch pattern with less aberrant scratches. I think that when sanding with out vacuuming grit that breaks free from the paper can get trapped under the disk and get ground around a bit. That's my theory anyway. All I know is that it is remarkable how much better it works. Very little dust to deal with on the surface as well. I have 8 hole sanders so I get a lot of dust pick up.
Link
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Thanks, Link. What you're saying about the performance of the paper when used with a vac on the ROS makes perfect sense. The little bits of broken off grit grinding around under the disc would certainly seem to dull the grit on the paper a lot faster, and be a detriment to the scratch pattern. I have found it cumbersome to have a shop vac hose attached to my ROS, so I haven't done it enough to really realize the benefits. But I have a Festool vac, now, with a smaller, more flexible hose, so I'll have to try it again (and get myself a Festool ROS as soon as I can, as well).
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd Rose wrote:
I emailed the folks at Klingspor's Woodworking shop. For sanding bare wood with an ROS, they recommended their stearate coated aluminum oxide disks.


BTW, I think one of the reasons they initially recommended their stearated paper for sanding bare wood was because I had said in my first email that some of the woods I use are oily/resinous tropical hardwoods.
Author:  Todd Rose [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Todd, I just looked at Festool 5" ROS's and papers online. From the photos of the papers, it looks like the hole placement is different. Aside from the center hole, the eight outer holes appear to be closer to the perimeter of the disc than standard 8 hole discs. Is that true? So, these discs would not work with sanders other than the Festool, and, likewise, only Festool discs will work with the Festool ROS?
Author:  Brook Moore [ Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
I found the comment about 3M's 216u being safe for waterbased finishes: It is from finishing guru Jeff Jewitt's homesteadingfinishing.com site, from which I quote:

"3M 216U FRE-CUT™ GOLD is the longest-lasting, best cutting sandpaper I've used. Its about the only dry sandpaper I've found that sands dewaxed shellac and other hard-to-sand finishes without corning immediately. (See photo below). It's graded to tighter particle size deviation tolerances and is made with modified stearates that do not cause problems with in-between sanding of water-based finishes. It leaves no residue which results in a chalky look or causes problems with finishes. It's well worth the price and it's one of the most often used sandpaper in my shop."

By the way, in my experience, the Mirka Abranet is not much more resistant to loading than the paper-backed disks, when used on resinous woods. It also requires a special Mirka intermediate backing pad to protect your main pad.

Brook
Author:  Todd Rose [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Sandpaper recommendations for ROS, and fret leveling?
Thanks for that further input, Brook.

I'm going to answer my own question about the Festool discs, as I've found all the info. The hole arrangement on the Festool 5" ROS pad is different from the standard, so standard 8 hole sanding discs will not work on the Festool, and the holes on the Festool sanding discs will not line up on the standard 5" 8 hole ROS pads found on other sanders.

Exactly the kind of complete info on specific varieties of sandpapers that I've been looking for is available for Festool sanding discs here: http://bobmarinosbesttools.com/tip_deta ... fc2&tid=23

It would be nice if other manufacturers and suppliers of sandpapers would provide such thorough information, rather than just colors and marketing hype with somewhat vague claims about performance. Bravo to Festool. The availability of this info alone is another motivation for me to go ahead and get a Festool ROS. At the same time, with this info from Festool, I am now able to extrapolate a much better understanding of the varieties of sandpapers available from other manufacturers as well.

If you check out that PDF from Festool, you'll see that they make one sanding disc (Titan 2) that is stearate coated, and they specifically warn against using that one with waterborne finishes. Their "Cristal" paper looks like the one to choose where you might use 3M Gold - it is an open coated paper with some kind of no load coating. It doesn't say what the coating is, but I assume it's not stearate, since they specifically mention the stearate coating on the Titan 2 paper, with the warning about not using it with waterborne finishes. They also describe the Cristal paper as being very aggressive. It looks like the one I might choose, for example, for sanding the drum sander scratches off the back of a guitar, especially if the wood is oily/resinous. A good, aggressive, no load paper should make quick work of that job.
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