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Carving an Archtop Plate
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20898		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  archtop [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Carving an Archtop Plate
I'm curious.... Has anyone ever followed the method Benedetto outlines in his book, i.e. drilling a bunch of holes and then knocking the rest out with a chisel and then planing it? In the video he just goes at it with a plane. I always thought that the hole drilling method was a bit scary. It's not clear to me. At least if he specified to put a collar on the bit and do it, but he doesn't. It's a little too vague for such a critical step that can go so potentially wrong. eek
How do you do it? What plane do you start with? I use an Ibex and a Stanley 100 1/2.
-John
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
I am fairly sure he has a cloud pattern depth for each hole and I am equaklly sure the depth is bit short of target depth. but I could see how it would be a time saver.
Author:  elysne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
I've done it this way many times. You use a pin and it follows the op outline. It's a big timesaver.

I don't chisel however... but I use a grinder with one of those chainsaw blades to hack out most of the material. I then use a grinder with 80 grit and eventually move to a orbital sander.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
I dont really like the drill a million holes and whack out the waste with a chisel approach for the outside. I find it to be more annoying than time saving.

A fast persons approach to carving plates using mostly hand tools-

-Mark your edge thickness of 1/4" or whatever you use on the side of the plate. I use a shop made purfling cutter for this.

-Use a scrub plane to facet the plate, kind of like a pyramid. This gets rid of a lot of the waste really quickly.

-Switch to a gouge or big carving plane, focus on getting the edge down to where you want it, but leave it a little fat. Carve from the edge towards the middle of the plate mostly.

-Using a safety planer create a flat ledge around the edge like Benedetto shows.

-Back to the gouge and big plane, start working on the arch proper, blending the archings into the flat area you created with the safety planer. Long cross grain strokes help keep things even, and you avoid spending too much time "correcting" your archings.

-When the arch starts to take shape, switch to a small flat plane, like a stanley #100 or similar, maybe smaller if you prefer. Refine the arch, spending most of your time carving "downhill", strokes radiating from the center of the lower bout to the edge. Switch that up with more long cross grain strokes, which help to keep the long arch nice(the arch from tailblock to neckblock)

-You will probably need to use a smaller, radiused plane like an ibex in the waist area. Carve mostly downhill again, from the center seam to the waist.

-Clean it up and continue to refine the arch with a scraper. A couple of hard and semi hard sanding blocks with very coarse sandpaper, 60 grit is what i use, can help make the surface flow nicely if the scraper is giving you ridges or lumps. The sanding scratches can be scraped out in seconds.

General pointers- Work in a mostly dark room, with only one light source to cast a shadow from the side. Get rid of as much wood as you are comfortable with early in the proccess. with a scrub plane or big gouge, and then spend the bulk of your time refining the arch. If you work methodically, you wont need to spend your time "correcting" lumpy archings. Using a hand tool heavy style keeps the shop quiet and mostly dust free. I also find that using power carving methods gives me lumpy results, and i spend too much time correcting, and dont really save any time.

Some tools i like for arching- The violin makers gouge from the japan woodworker. The large d'angelico plane. Ibex planes in 18mm and 12mm sizes, ideally convex and flat versions. A #100 size plane. Scrapers in several thicknesses and shapes.
Author:  archtop [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Jordan, great post! Nice detail. I was picturing each step as I read! :) I actually have most of the tools you mentioned and I too prefer hand tools to hacking out the wood with power tools. When you talk about using the gouge and the "big plane", what do you consider the "big plane" to be? Two more questions..... I have a bunch of small planes mostly with convex soles. However, I do have a cheap little Kunz that is pretty much like a Stanley 100. How many flat sole planes do you use and which ones? My second question is; have you ever seen the violin/cello plate gouges that Diefenbacher sell? I was thinking of getting one but you mentioned yours is from the Japan Woodworker. Right now my only gouge is a 1" Two Cherries Bent Gouge. It's out cannel with about a #7 sweep. Do you think that could sub for the violin gouges? I'm trying to save $$$. Thanks.
-John
Author:  jordan aceto [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
The "big" plane i was talking about was the large d'angelico plane, i meant to make that clear in my post but i forgot. Its not really so big, just compared to the little ibexes, the ibex block plane would probably work well also, but i have not tried it.

The Diefenbacher gouge is probably fine, anything well made with a long handle like that and an outcannel bevel should do nicely. You could even put a longer handle on an existing gouge to save bucks. Gouges are not strictly necessary, but a good one can speed things up quite a bit, especially in spruce, get ready to be buried in wooden potato chips.

It sounds like you know what you are looking for, but i will put it out there that a lot of the "violin makers" tools are sadistically designed, especially the IN cannel gouges sold as luthiers tools. They are what experienced violin makers call "knuckle busters", the low angle required to use them means knuckles repeatedly smashing into the edge of your work during a phase of carving that requires a lot of muscle and speed.

As for flat soled little planes, i made a bunch of them. The wooden ones are quick and fun to make, the dovetailed metal ones are a sign of mental instability. I used an orphaned kunz blade for the smallest plane, and i like it a lot. I think your kunz is probably all you need, but it is fun to have an arsenal.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Nice work on those dovetailed metal infills, Jordan.

I drill like Benedetto, a little bit short of where I think I will end up. When you flip it over to do the inside, the pin can compress the top wood and leave little marks. Make the pin broad and pad it with something not very compressible, like poster board. Also leave just a bit more to clean up on the face after you have drilled the back, so you can get rid of those compression spots. Benedetto never mentions this in the book (I never saw the video).

I rough with a structured carbide disc in an angle grinder. Quick and dirty; not for the timid, or for those who enjoy the big gouge and mallet.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Howard Klepper wrote:
Make the pin broad and pad it with something not very compressible, like poster board. Also leave just a bit more to clean up on the face after you have drilled the back, so you can get rid of those compression spots. Benedetto never mentions this in the book (I never saw the video).


Compression spots like this?

http://www.darntonviolins.com/images2/dimples2.jpg

Those are genuine Stradivari dents from his graduation punch! Photo from Michael Darntons website, which is full of great pictures.
Author:  archtop [ Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Thanks Jordan. I have the large D'Angelico. Glad to hear another builder is getting use out of it. Seems like most other builders that have tried it/used it have not been so happy with it. True, the mouth is a bit large but I still find it to be functional. Thanks.
-John
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Here is a tip you may or may not know about, and may or may not like.

Grinding a reverse thumbnail shape into your gouge like this-
Attachment:
Picture 062.jpg


allows the edges of the cut to be sliced before the middle, which reduces tearout and makes the gouge really glide through the wood.

A gouge with a normal rounded shape edge cuts from the middle outwards, which means the leading edge in the middle is buried deep in the wood, tending to shovel out big splintery chunks instead of nice surfboards.

If you use gouges a lot, you need at least one of each shape. The reverse thumbnail is not good for eveything, but is is ideal for roughing out archings.
Author:  archtop [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
Thanks Jordan. You seem to have really given this topic a lot of thought. I appreciate the info! So far I don't even have many gouges, especially the longer type it looks like you posted in the photo. I just thought for now I would try to get by in some spots with a regular 1" bent gouge (Two Cherries) and a mallet. I'm not at that stage yet though.

So do you take your first cut at the plate with the D'Angelico plane or do you prefer to start with a flat sole? What's your biggest flat sole for carving plates?
-John
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carving an Archtop Plate
archtop wrote:
So do you take your first cut at the plate with the D'Angelico plane or do you prefer to start with a flat sole? What's your biggest flat sole for carving plates?


I start with the most agressive tool, which for me is a gouge, and move towards finer tools for each step. The d'angelico plane(any largish convex sole plane would work here) then a flat #100 size plane, switched up with 18mm and 12mm ibexes in the waist and wherever necessary, then scrapers.

The smallest of the planes i pictured is about the size of a stanley #100, the larger block planes are around the size of a #60 & 1/2, maybe a little smaller. I usually use whichever one is the sharpest!
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