Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20891		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Ok - as some of you have seen in another thread (viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20886), my son and I have basically completed guitar #003.

We are very excited about the process and are quite pleased with the results other than to Hesh's horror our shop is a mess!

So - as a perfectionist and a newbie builder, I'm trying to get the best possible sound, and that's a stretch given our experience level.

I am guessing that this first "solo build" is over braced a little bit - and sounds a little tight in the bottom range. I would like to open up that part of the register and am thinking of getting inside the guitar with some tools (read: fingers and sand paper at first) - and see if I can make it sound even better.

My question is - if I want to open up the bottom end response - should I be concentrating on taking down the tone bars? Finger braces? One of the tone bars?

My world is open for you comments - just need to know which direction to go.

Thanks again OLF!
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Paul,

It being recently completed, I'd give it at least a few months of playing in before doing anything. A bit of aging often improves the sound in that area.

I will say that from your pictures, your top bracing appears a bit over-stout. For starters I would have put more taper at the upper ends of the upper arms of the x-brace, lower peaks on the scallops and lower tone bars. But that's just me.

Pat
Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
One thing that ALWAYS works is a pick-up and a Marshall full stack...... :D

I'm not seeing any bracing pictures in Pat's link - am I missing something? Paul do you have any pics of how you braced it?

I would wait as Pat suggests though - these things DO improve with use and time.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Hesh wrote:
One thing that ALWAYS works is a pick-up and a Marshall full stack...... :D

I'm not seeing any bracing pictures in Pat's link - am I missing something? Paul do you have any pics of how you braced it?

I would wait as Pat suggests though - these things DO improve with use and time.


Attachment:
web.jpg


se it noe?? :D
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
1) Stop! Be patient...It can take 6 months to open up and stabilize.

2) Play!

3) Listen, Evaluate, Enjoy! Learn to hear.

4) Reduce bracing mass on the next one by 10-20%. Take lots of notes and observations...be methodical.

5) Stop

6) Play

7) Listen, Compare, Evaluate, Enjoy. Continue learning to hear differences.

8) Repeat as needed until you start making decisions based on data learned from previous guitars.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Off your topic a bit:
I have little issue with the X brace outside of the forward taper but I do have a remark that your UTB is cut out to nothing right where it does its work, the main function of the UTB is to resist the inward loading of the fretboard extension. As you have it, it is at its weakest under the fretboard.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
Off your topic a bit:
I have little issue with the X brace outside of the forward taper but I do have a remark that your UTB is cut out to nothing right where it does its work, the main function of the UTB is to resist the inward loading of the fretboard extension. As you have it, it is at its weakest under the fretboard.


What you don't see in this photo is the neck block extension that fits between the UTB cutout. I had a little design error that caused me to address it this way. The UTB is glued to the neck block extension.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Paul Burner wrote:
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
Off your topic a bit:
I have little issue with the X brace outside of the forward taper but I do have a remark that your UTB is cut out to nothing right where it does its work, the main function of the UTB is to resist the inward loading of the fretboard extension. As you have it, it is at its weakest under the fretboard.


What you don't see in this photo is the neck block extension that fits between the UTB cutout. I had a little design error that caused me to address it this way. The UTB is glued to the neck block extension.


Woosh!! glad to hera that :D I was concerned that the opening wa just truss rod access.

back on topic let this open up 6 months then decide if you need to loosen anything up.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
Woosh!! glad to hera that :D I was concerned that the opening wa just truss rod access.

back on topic let this open up 6 months then decide if you need to loosen anything up.


Michael - you said the following: "I have little issue with the X brace outside of the forward taper"

Can you please tell me more about what you mean and more precisely the location - this would help me understand better. Thanks
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
I would just like to see the front part pf the X bace and a bit more taper to it I like full height for about 1 1/2" past the intersection the start tapperinng down a bit
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
I would just like to see the front part pf the X bace and a bit more taper to it I like full height for about 1 1/2" past the intersection the start tapperinng down a bit


Thanks for that input. Is there a reason why you like this? Not doubting you at all - just pumping you for your reasoning so I can learn more.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Paul;
you have gotten some great advise so far!
Let the guitar become a guitar-it will open a bit .
Also strings your using can have some affect also.
Phospor bronze have a warmer tone than 85/15 .

I agree with MDP about tapering the upper X .
it makes that area a bit more flexible which can help with bass responce.


Mike
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Mike nailed it
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
"...a little tight in the bottom range..." is just how i'd expect a decent new guitar to sound. Give it at least a month to play in: if you don't notice substantial improvement by then, it's time to start thinking about other options.

Given the extent of scalloping, I'd expect the bass to come up fine. If it doesn't I would not remove any more wood from the top braces in the center. If, after it's played up a bit, you still want some more bass, try shaving the _back_ braces, to drop the 'main back' tap tone pitch. You tend to get the most bass with the least chance for problems when the back tap tone is a semitone higher than the top. But don't do it yet! If you try to enhance the bass now it could end up sounding 'tubby', since the bass is what develops most with playing.
Author:  Rod True [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
Paul I agree with the other's. You have to let the string tension set in and let the guitar open up. Patience grasshopper!

Now, there is one thing that I noticed about your top.

Attachment:
pb top.jpg


Those finger braces are very low and they are also aligned with the peak of the x-brace. You've created a very stiff section here, and my guess is that you're mids and lows just drop off (little sustain) and sound tight because of this.

I'd remove those lower finger braces all together. Or, just leave them and chalk it up to poor design and correct it on the next one.

Here's something that would be a good idea for you and Kyle to do. Take 10 tops, before you thickness them, join them together and flex them. Take notes of which feels stiffer when flexing perpendicular to the grain. Now start to thickness them, removing only small amounts of material at a time. Keep flexing between thicknessing and take notes as to which feels stiffer or flimsier when flexing perpendicular to the grain. Tap it too, see which one's have a higher pitch, lower pitch, which one's have sustain. Take notes on this.

Than, take those 10 tops and brace them all exactly the same. Don't remove any material yet. Now tap them again noting pitch and sustain.

Now start to shave the braces, don't shave much before you tap them, again taking notes of pitch and sustain.

I hope you can see where I'm going here. You want to learn how to build a good sounding guitar. You have to put in the time and effort to learn just what removing a little bit of material does for the tone of the plate. You can feel the vibrations in your hand when tapping, you can hear how long the note(s) ring and what their pitch is. This exercise will greatly help you understand a portion of what is going on with the top.

If you want, then remove the braces on half of the tops and re-brace in a different configuration (layout) then do it all over again.

These exercises will teach you alot about bracing and voicing and how the guitar will generally sound.

You also have to remember that sometimes, it doesn't matter who is building the guitar, sometimes karma is against you (or what ever it's chalked up to) and it doesn't matter what you do, sometimes it will just sound like a guitar and not a choir of angles singing.
Author:  Paul Burner [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
OK - OK - I get it :lol:

Play it - enjoy it - and live with it for about 6 months.

and.... RELAX!

Thanks for the input from all!
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
I went through this on a couple of my beginner builds and quite frankly I didn't notice much of a difference by adding braces and or scraping some of them thinner. You may simply have started off with the top plate too thick. Personally I'd just leave it alone. Some people like a less bassy guitar sound and if it's loud for a small design that is a good thing.

Your bracing IMO looks ok. I'd taper the upper X brace my self but who knows. The UTB should as mentioned be solid through and It's best to let the X-Brace ends into the linings rather then having them 'freestanding' which I am assuming by the picture is the case.

Give her some time to develop her own personality and play around with different strings too.
Author:  kburner1 [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Coaxing more sound out of a finished guitar
thanks for all the input, definitely some good things to improve on for the next guitar. My dad and I were just talking about how it is interesting that some guitars seem "open" right after they are built, and others open up drastically over time. I wonder what it is that causes different guitars to "open up" more than others. If it is the wood characteristics or if it is some aspect of the building process.

The x-braces are inlet, the top is just over-sized in that photo and has not been cut down yet.

Thank you all for your input.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/