| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Clarification On Weissenborn Construction http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20850 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | wyodave [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Ok, I've been building jigs, molds, etc to get a Weiss. started. Man, when you can only work on your projects on the weekends, it seems to take forever. Anyway let me pose some questions. I've read Todd S's & some of you other builders posts and they have been very informative. The bracing on this hollow neck guitar is still not real clear to me. How high and wide should the bracing be. Are they scalloped much? The X pattern seems to be the one to use. Can someone show their bracing of the top? The guitar I plan on making will be real simple. I would just like to leave the body 3 or 3 1/2 deep all the way instead of tapering. No radius as I don't have a radius dish yet. Sapele all the way(Thanks to Todd Stock for the wood), Cocobolo fretboard and bridge w/ 25in. scale. I believe someone in a past post said to use "doublers" in the neck? Is this just a pc. of solid wood on each side of the inside of the neck? How thick? Since I have a hard time getting back into the shop on weeknights, is it ok to say get bracing glued up and leave till I can get back to it, or should one button up the box asap? Where should we be for thickness dimentions on top, back & sides? My plans have nothing about it. Thanks Everyone Dave |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | Christophe Grellier [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Hi, Well, I think Tony is the guy we should listen to. I have much less knowledge about this instrument than he has. Two things I have changed over time is that I now make my top braces taller and thinner ( 8mm x 15mm for the X ), and that I put a slight arching on the top. |
|
| Author: | Christophe Grellier [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
wyodave wrote: Since I have a hard time getting back into the shop on weeknights, is it ok to say get bracing glued up and leave till I can get back to it, or should one button up the box asap? I think it is pretty risky to leave a braced plate alone for a long time. If it warps one way or another, there are few chances that it will come back to its initial position. |
|
| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
TonyFrancis wrote: Anyways, at Weissenborn they braced flat and arched the top and back using humidity. Tony Hi Tony, by this do you mean that they dried the top and bottom plates before bracing so that they would end up arched at normal humidity. I have done this and find it useful. regards Jeff |
|
| Author: | wyodave [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Todd the bracing on your photos looks preety thick. I'll stick to whatever you guys advise. My plan is the Stew/Mac plan & I knew I'd have to diviate from it. I'm making her the same length and using the bout measurements so far. Todd I'll PM you for some measurments on the bracing if thats ok. Tony, thanks for your input. I don't have access to a hollow body where I live. My reference to the Weiss, is a book I got sometime ago(From Harp Guitars to the New Hawaiian Family Chris J. Knutsen). Informative but not alot on building. From what I've read, some of those old guitars didn't seem to be built strong enough. Christophe, I had no idea you were on this forum. I wrote to you a year or two ago asking you some questions when I was thinking about this build. You did write me back too. Thanks. Your site got me going on this hollow body to begin with. Dave |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Tony, thanks for your input on this. For those of us who do not have access to originals, do you have any pics of the bracing in the early, middle and late weissenborns? thanks Jeff |
|
| Author: | wyodave [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Jeff, I'm on the same page your are. I'm curious to see pics too. The reference book I had talked about before only has a photo of a 1924 Style 1 bracing. I wonder too if someone has pics of the 1927 or 28 models that had the newer style bracing that book talks about. To quote:" By about 1927 or 1928, Weissenborn installed a massive bridge plate and bracing on the underside of the top to support the tension and the stress of the heavier strings used in an attempt to increase volume. These bridge plates are almost Christmas tree shaped , with the apex fitting solidly into the angle formed by the crossing of the X braces, and with a tail extending down to the lower bout lateral brace." The book claims that ,"these instruments can be identified today by their almost flat, undistorted tops." Dave |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | Dave White [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Tony, Thanks for the wonderful information and pictures. I have the greatest respect for the makers of these fabulous instruments early last century and those modern builders that follow in their footsteps keeping the traditions and making fine instruments and restorations. Old instruments are like hen's teeth here and when I made my first lap slide I wanted to see how my building methods would translate into such an instrument so I thought about it a lot and decided that the area from soundhole upwards was where I needed to think hard structurally, and in the bridge/lower bout area to think tonally. Also I built with my usual radius of 10' on the back and 13' on the top as I find this gives me great sustain and projection, plus my tops are around 3mm thick in the centre and graduated from there. The first one I made was around 3.5" deep and the second one just over 4" deep, which gave a richer sound. The top and back bracing was like this (tapered about 6mm wide): Attachment: drg48a.jpg Attachment: drg50a.jpg My first instrument has been played by leading UK slide player Kevin Brown at the last two Cheltenham Acoustic Guitar Shows and has got the thumbs up from him in terms of how it sounds and plays: Attachment: kevinb2.jpg Makers like Hermann Weissenborn and Chris Knutsen were true pioneers and explorers and I think that there is plenty of room today for similar spirits, and this compliments those that keep the tradition - no need for belittleing from either side. |
|
| Author: | wyodave [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Gosh Tony! These pics are great!! Thank you very much. I hope we can keep this going with more discussion. Dave |
|
| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Thanks for that Tony. Thats a big change from the early bridge plate shown on the MIMF plans regards Jeff |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
TonyFrancis wrote: Happy to help. Now, can we discuss body depth and back vault / arches?!!? That would be interesting. I have only built one so far at standard depth +about 6mm Some of the really deep ones that some are building seem like they would be cumbersome on the lap. Given that many musicians are using lower tunings than the originals were designed for, do you see any need for increased depth? I love the longitudinal arch on the back, could'nt immagine wanting to build without it. Jeff |
|
| Author: | Dave White [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Todd Stock wrote: Finally - Cristophe: you are far too modest concerning your work. Your pages on Weissenborn-style guitar construction were key to my first effort, and I still use a mold based largely on the one shown on your site. I'll second that - Christophe's website was of immense help to me, thanks Cristophe. Edit - the body depths of my two lap slides should have read 3" and 3.5" not 3.5" and 4". TonyFrancis wrote: Now, can we discuss body depth and back vault / arches?!!? Yes please. |
|
| Author: | wyodave [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Not ever seeing a real Weiss. I have nothing to go by. Bought the SM plan and have a mold off those plans. So I guess it would be wise to "trash" my mold? Feel sick about wasteing a sheet of 3/4 birch, OUCH. Dave |
|
| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
No need to trash the mould, just get the MIMF plans and lay the mould on top. If there are areas which need to be closed up you can take a little off the mating surfaces of the mould (at the tailblock end) and then reshape the inside surface. |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
- |
|
| Author: | Christophe Grellier [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
Tony, all your posts are definitely really interesting. Thank you for sharing this knowledge. If you wish to make plans, I would be happy to help by doing the CAD drawing, if you wish. Good night ( it's time to go to bed, here ). |
|
| Author: | K.O. [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clarification On Weissenborn Construction |
TonyFrancis wrote: Molds at Weissenborn are an interesting subject. Im pretty sure they never used a mold as such at least untill around the mid to late 1920s. Before that, Spanish style construction (workboards of somekind) were used. Its easy to tell this because of the irregularity of these guitars in terms of shape - especially when you look at the guitar from the back. Now when they had molds, I wonder how they looked!? Weissenborn was originally a violin maker so im sure he was well used to inside molds, but these dont make much sense for guitar construction. So since molds came into use around the same time as Rudy Dopyera began working at Weissenborn, so maybe they were the same as used at Dobro. Who knows. I have only used inside molds when I used molds for my dulcimers, is it possible that he used something like this: http://bataillelutherie.free.fr/site/f-guitare-weissenborn.html#1 |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|