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The bar is so HIGH!!!! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20730	Page 1 of 2

Author:	martinedwards [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	The bar is so HIGH!!!!
I've been posting here for a fair while now and I've seen some beautiful instrumnets made by folks with all levels of experience, as well as the free gifting of information and support for the noobs who are just starting off on thier addiction...... When I started, (way back in June 06), I wasn't ashamed to show my forst mandonaught, even though looking back at the pics now, the truss rod cover wasn't straight and there were some glue splodge shadows in the finish...... I was just delighted to have a place where I could show off a little and other folks who were into the building game could say well done. well, 2 1/2 years later I've learned a few chops and I'm a better builder, but it seems that the general standard has ROCKETED!! There are first builds on here that knock anything I've built into touch as if I only had an adze and a rotten wooden pallet to work with!! On one hand this is great that the help given here means that some beautiful instruments are being made..... but on the other hand...... is anyone else (hobby guys here, pros are doing it for a living after all) nervous about posting pics because they might not be up to scratch?

Author:	David R White [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
No question there is some fabulous work being presented here. I think you need to keep perspective. We all come from different backgrounds and have different natural abilities and different amounts of time to spend on this. Some folks may be presenting a first guitar, after having many years of woodworking skills, or perhaps many years in a career where aesthetic design is part of every day life. Also, who's to say that the nice looking ones sound or play better than yours? I approached this with no wood working background and poor design skills, so I'm not embarassed that my first few didn't measure up. However I am making great progress by keeping one goal in mind - each guitar must be better than the one previous (I stole that motto from someone, but I can't remember who).

Author:	Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
I am a hobby guy and feel that way. I started just before you. The reality is posting allows for constructive criticism. It is the only way to improve. Learn from your mistakes and listen to the critiques. Getting only good praise doesn't help you develop like constructive criticism. The key is to be kind with it and don't take it personally. I brought my worst guitar acoustically to Ervin Somogyi for a reason. It looked nice but I hated the tone. I wanted to know why it had the acoustic properties and what I could do to make it better. I learned so much from the mistakes on that guitar, that when I re topped it, it became one of my better guitars. You are right, some of the first builds are incredible by the picts.

Author:	TonyKarol [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
theres always photoshop ...

Author:	SteveSmith [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
I'll bite. noobs who are just starting off on thier addiction...... Aptly stated. is anyone else (hobby guys here, pros are doing it for a living after all) nervous about posting pics because they might not be up to scratch? Yep but I post anyway. I will say that seeing some of the other work here encourages me to take extra care with my own work and try to maintain the highest quality that I can.

Author:	martinedwards [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
TonyKarol wrote: theres always photoshop ...

Author:	Joe Sabin [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
As my first yoga instructor said to me as I struggled through the many poses "Enjoy being a beginner, you only get to do that once."

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Fortunately there is more then one bar in our world....... What I mean to say is that as David has correctly pointed out we all are coming from different places in terms of any possibly related experience that we may bring with us. Many of our members although possibly new to guitar/instrument (For Andy Birko) building they have either some or a great deal of woodworking experience. And some of us never drove a stinkin nail before....... So with that said and in an effort to not be long winded I would suggest that there are many bars here and each and everyone of us has our very own bar to reckon with, meet, not meet, surpass. I have yet to watch a builder here that did not get better in time. And I have yet to watch a builder here who did not IMHO get a LOT better in time too. My hats off to all of ya In my own experience the bar is a moving target....... that I hope that I never reach because if I do I will no longer be getting better, learning anything, and likely not having fun anymore either. Fortunately there is no chance of me meeting the bar at any point and that's just fine with me. Great topic!!!

Author:	Darrin D Oilar [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Not to mention I've never seen Flushtone Guitarworks Trashcan Model™. We all start somewhere. Guys that build beautiful instruments here may have started off in the same boat. The key is that you're trying. If you ever watch combat sports of some variety (boxing, wrestling, MMA) you may wonder why the guys can hug and congratulate eachother at the end, even though one lost and one won. Because they had the guts to do battle, and each one of them knows what it took to do that. There are a lot of people who don't. If you have the guts to try to build something that most believe is only capable of being made in a factory, you've earned the right to be proud of your effort. When I finish my first, I'll post pictures, and I'll be embarrassed and humbled that it's not as good as some of the other firsts, but I'm trying, and I'm putting in the effort to learn. I know I'll get better as I keep going and continue to learn and to refine all the special skillsets that are a part of this. Darrin

Author:	Fred Tellier [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Everyone builds to their skill level and I don't think anyone here would look down on anyones work. I find that finish is the and the little things are the difference between the really flawless builds and the lesser builds. Things like fits, gaps, and glue cleanup are within the reach of anyone with a little more sandpaper and scraper time and can really detract from instrument. Also if you really look hard there is always something that is not true perfection on any guitar. Go to the music shops and look at what the factories are producing, until I started building in 2005 I did not really look at guitars as close as I now do and I can see lots of things that could be done better even from the big companies. We all must learn from out mistakes, try to pick a few things that you can do better on the next build and strive to improve them, and as for finish you can always send it to Joe White, his work is second to none. Fred

Author:	meddlingfool [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Hear hear! Just worry about raising your own bar, there's always someone better somewhere.

Author:	Sam Price [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
martinedwards wrote: is anyone else (hobby guys here, pros are doing it for a living after all) nervous about posting pics because they might not be up to scratch? I'm a hobby builder and the answer to your question is yes. Not necessarily nervous, but intimidated. I am also not into photoshopping the guitars- and also exercise my choice not to post photographs of every single "noob" guitar I make and it is quite unlikely I ever will, it is not a pre-requisite of being a member of this forum..I am also too aware of the visual and structural faults that simply happen with the first few guitars and I'd rather not be reminded publically of them- but mainly feel this forum has emerged into a place for professionals, which I am OK with also, as it truly is a visual feast when I often log in. It's like rubbing shoulders with the "gods".... and also a great honour to have their expertise, BASED on experience, NOT on a quick skit round Google.... It is not as if I am building guitars "blind", meaning that the internet has given a lot of amatuer luthiers the opportunity to "fast track" to building a good guitar, and the high standards on this forum is a constant reminder to myself as to the high standards I want to reach. I may never reach them- but I'll try in this Great Waiting Room of Life...

Author:	John Mayes [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
I have qualms in stating that the first guitar I ever built was the worst guitar I've ever seen. I'd take an esteban over it. It was lousy on craftsmanship, design and playability (it actually sounded decent). My point? You've got to start somewhere. Some people who go to lutherie schools, or take in a bunch of instructional via video, books, one on one have and advantage over those who just went for it, but you've got to start somewhere. Wherever that is, do your best as your skills will allow you to move upward.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Don't be ashamed to ever show your work. You must be able to compare your self to other with out shame. One must do so to be able to truly analyze where they are at. In fact even when you are better than a specific piece turns out being able to show that piece of work among peers can be an aid in helping to regenerate motivation. I just went to NAMM with a guitar that had be stolen from my shop then recovered by the police. It had been taken and damaged very badly but it was the on MJ I had available on the short notice I was given by my Case company and I had to have an MJ to put in an the case. The body finish was beat up and I had to pull the frets and was still in the process of fret dressing but did not have time to finish. I almost backed out and did not bring it but My task at NAMM was to show off the custom case and I promised I would so I did. Being somewhat embarrassed about the shape of that guitar while at the show actually ended up stoking the fire under me when I got home. I had a couple of forum peers and other renowned builders looking at it. They asked the story behind it and I told them. Not one said a single bad thing to me but only gave good advice on how to handle the reconditioning. It was only a learning experience not at all a shameful experience even though it was not good reflection of my best work in the state it was in. Shame will only hold you back expectance will only move you forward.

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
That's right Sammy my friend no one should ever feel compelled to post pics if that is not in your comfort zone. I do remember the pics of your guitars and you do a GREAT job!!! Although there are more and more pros here these days I suspect that the ratio of hobby builder to pro has not changed much from the 70%ish of hobby builders that we measured with a couple of polls done in the past. But the membership has definitely increased incredibly and it seems like we are seeing multiple new members every day now. As one of the welcome wagon wackos it seems that we are welcoming more people than ever before. I built about 5 guitars before I discovered the OLF and back then my goal was to get better through repetition. After joining the OLF and networking (I hate the word networking BTW) with as many other builders as I could I found that the meet & greets with other builders were invaluable to me AND I made some great new friends too. It's one thing to have a player appreciate your guitars warts and all and since they typically are not builders they tend to be far more forgiving of fit and finish issues. Hand your guitars to another builder though and watch as they go through an individual mental list of things to check-out such as the neck joint, looking for signs of filled binding gaps, uneven bindings especially at the top of the upper bout on the back, fret work, saddle height, break angle, and on and on....... It's a tough room! But it's an important room as Doc Andy said you will learn more from constructive criticism then awe and unending praise. Besides you won't have any drool to clean up either..... My motto that I unfortunately had to take a break from to build a new shop is to just keep building!

Author:	Dave Ellingsworth [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
well, I'll chip in on this, as I'm a beginning hobby builder, and know my work needs improvement, but each time I do a particular task, I feel more confident about it and it turns out just a bit better each time. I've learned so much from many on this forum, and from books/dvds/etc. Never had the chance to go to a real 'school' for this craft, and probably won't at this point in my life. But I'm old enough to know that if you really want to do something and the opportunity is there, then do it! A year or so ago, I had the opportunity to meet and visit with a real professional builder who lives in the next big city up the road. He mentioned that I should bring my first build by and he'd take a look at it. I was awed that he'd even consider it, and feared what he might say (as it had its issues, granted.) But when he looked at it, all he said was the endgraft was installed upside down from a traditional standpoint. That's all he said, he didn't nitpick and point out each issue. Then he gave me some suggestions on jigs and methods. He also mentioned to me that he has seen many first time builders who try to do too much at first. His idea was that you should try to keep your first few instruments as simple and straightforward as possible, so you learn the process itself and develop the skills first. Then you can embellish later. He challenged me to try to build the next couple as quickly as I could...then expand on details on subsequent builds. Seems like good advice to me! FWIW... dave

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
You will find that craftsmen will give constructive critical review by means of implication. What I mean is you seldom hear you did a bad job at X but rather you will hear “you need or might want to try this when doing X”. 99.9% of us would much rather teach than criticize and we had rather see you improve that drop out due to peer pressure. Absorbing the spears and arrows of critical review by peer craftsmen is far easer than taking critical review from our spouses

Author:	Sam Price [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Good post, Hesh. Hesh wrote: Hand your guitars to another builder though and watch as they go through an individual mental list of things to check-out....... And that's exactly the way I like and intend my guitars to be critiqued. One on one, honest appraisal. Oh, add the semi pro/pro guitarist who will play it in front of you and give you the quick and dirty low down on the guitar's quality in terms of tone and playability. From my experience the "spears and arrows" are so easily recieved this way. How can someone accurately judge a guitar's quality with just photographs - and perhaps a sound/vid clip or two posted online?

Author:	Rob Lak [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
I'm going to argue that the standard HAS skyrocketed if only due to all the info set up here. I'll wager if I, as a newbie, tried to build without this resource you can bet i would have overbuilt like many of the early posters. After you hear it 12,000 times and see the images of before and after, it's much easier to build it better the first time. So if the quality you see here has increased, you can all give yourselves a big old hand.

Author:	Hesh [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Rob my friend do you think that bar has raised or that because of great forums like the OLF, much more availability of instructional materials such as Robbie's, John Mayes, videos new books, and some very generous Luthiers such as Sylvan Wells and Mario who have posted on their web sites materials for builders that instead of the bar being higher we are just much more aware of where the bar is these days? What I mean to say is that if you attended HGF in 2006 that was a great example of where the bar is and I don't think that beyond some innovations that have happened since the bar has moved. Compare HGF 2006 to HGF 2004 and I don't think that the bar moved then either. It has always been the case that excellent fit and finish, great playability, and superior tone are the expectation for a high-end custom guitar. In my case I think that my own perception of where the bar was was limited by my own lack of exposure to reality. When folks like Rick Turner came on board and told us that some of us were making GLO's (guitar like objects) if we didn't do what it takes to understand how to set-up a guitar properly and that this is really all about the players some were offended and some got busy and listened to Rick. The bar moved up that day for me because Rick was/is correct and my perception of what excellent playability is was wrong. So I don't think that the bar has moved at all really. But I do think that for many of us the bar seems to move as we learn more, get exposed to better and better guitars, and just keep building and get better ourselves.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Heck if I was affraid to show my first timers I'd hardly ever post things or have any videos. I think even watching someone or seeing someone elses mistakes is a learning experience. One example is where I used a upcut bit in my binding machine. Opps! I need to remember to check that from now on. I could have said nothing on the video but what the heck? Maybe someone else learned from my mistake like I did. It's not a mistake but a learning experience. I'm here to learn and not assamed to show my mistakes if I get helpful feed back on it. I tend to shy away from the know it alls in life. The one thing I know for sure is I don't know!

Author:	John Hale [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Give me a week and I'll give you a noob guitar that's full of flaws few thing to finish on it first though, for me it's been a accidental success in over sanding the top trying to remove a flaw I unintentionally got the sound I like, it's my ugly duckling but she sounds like a swan. Also I'm more than happy with people picking holes in it the only thing is if they tell me how to correct it. The standard here is high and we all aim for that perfect factory finish but with a hand made sound, then beat ourselves up cause we don't achieve it. To me sound matters first and foremost everything else is only cosmetic

Author:	Zach Ehley [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Hesh, I think the bar has been raised due to all of the sources of information you mentioned. Its the ease of obtaining a wealth of knowledge on how to build that has made new builders better. Before the internet, I assume someone would have to find one or two books on building from their local library, if they were lucky enough to find one at all, or learn from an experienced builder. Now you can go online and find 20 different ways of doing any given step in the process. If you have a question, its either been asked and is sitting in the archive or on someones webpage, or just ask and you'll get 20 opinions. I love looking at guitar pics, good or bad. I wish more people would post more pics. POST AWAY.

Author:	Flori F. [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
John Hale wrote: it's my ugly duckling but she sounds like a swan. I referred to my first as "my ugly duckling" too. I'm happy with its tone as well...now the cosmetics...errr...and it does need to be re-fretted. Watching Kathy Wingert demonstrate her fretting technique (at a SIMSCAL meeting) was invaluable. But then the tools I had to buy to copy her method weren't free. I agree that lots of builders on here show amazing work. I also think that the internet offers newbies more resources than they would have had before.

Author:	Rob Lak [ Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The bar is so HIGH!!!!
Hesh, i am saying the same thing but in reference to newbies. I think that's why so many newbies now have better first guitars. Except me. I'm doing my part to keep the bar at a level for the masses.

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