Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20714		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  MichaelBrock [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
I have been lurking for quite some time now. The "Calling all Lurkers" thread has called me out. However, I have a specific question/point of discussion so I thought I would start a new thread.

I have been playing classical guitar for about 8 months now and as a bit of a woodworker I decided to look into building one. That was the simple decision. For the last month or so I have been reading almost everything I can find on line about it and I have learned quite a bit. However, the decision of "what" to build eludes. me. I'm scraping my pennies together to buy a few books (namely Courtnall and Bogdanovich and possibly others) and should have those in hand shortly. The question is what plans/book to follow for my first build?

My current guitar has a cedar top. I haven't played any spruce topped classical guitar long enough to win me over but I have watched quite a few youtube videos specifically for the purpose of determining a favorite top and a this point i'd like to go with a cedar top. I'm not a fan of what seems to be the mainstream side and back woods like rosewood. I find that they are too dark and too "flashy" for my taste. My current guitar, a La Patrie Etude, has unfigured mahogany side and back and that under-stated look suites me well. I'm much more concerned with function than appearance and I'm not a traditional purist in that I don't need traditional features like a Spanish heel.

My reading here and elsewhere about plans has fairly convinced me not to stray too far from the luthier's original intent. It seems that Rodriguez and Fleta built cedar guitars, among others, but that apparently Torres and Hauser did not (keep in mind that I have read so much I'm sure I'm confused on some points).

So, with all that in mind can anyone suggest a set of plans and/or book to start with?
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Welcome to the OLF Michael! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap]

I am sure one of the classical folks will be along shortly to help you out.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
I'm not a big Cedar fan, but Dave Schramm has a CD course of a Miguel Rodriguez build. I'm sure the plan is from the GAL plan sold at www.luth.org. I believe the Rodriguez is a Cedar Top. I'm sure there are others out there, but I have not studied up on building with Cedar vs Spruce. If I'm not mistaken someone here is building a Hauser plan with a Cedar top. No reason you couldn't sub Cedar, you just have to adjust the thickness of the top accordingly. Dave's CD's are very good. I bought the Hauser one, and have referred to it often. It got me over the hump in several spots.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Michael -

Welcome to OLF.

You may want to consider spruce for a first build unless you are really comfortable with the woodworking. Cedar is easy to ding up and requires a lot of care in keeping the workplace clean, chips and tools away from the top, etc.

Maple is a nice traditional alternative for backs and sides, as is Cypress, if you want to stay away from the rosewood end. Actually, anything you can build a steel string guitar from is useful, but maple or cypress wouldn't strike a classical purist as being weird.

Waddy - David was building his Rodriguez during the course with spruce. I have built 3 guitars with that plan so far, 2 cedar and 1 spruce, all Indian Rosewood, and I liked the spruce one better.
Author:  Rob Lak [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
I second Jim's comments. I am building with cedar and it dents when you breath on it. It also chips very easily and if using handtools you need to be extra careful and they need to be extra sharp. That's two lessons (of many) i've already learned on my first build.

That said, i love the sound of cedar/redwood for a top on a steel string. Very mellow to me. That may not be a good thing on a classical though. Have you played any cedar classicals? If not (and if you can find them) you may want to try some before making that decision.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Michael;
go to www.luth.org and order plan #46.
it's a Rodriquez 1976.
It's a good place to start!
Just clean your workboard of dust &chips everytime you lay your top on it !
Get some wood from the great OLF sponcers !!

Also if you order this plan you can contact the maker who drew it.
Tom Blackshear at his site.

Mike
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
A caution - some people find the Rodriguez guitar to be too large. The guitar prof here (who plays a Humphrey Millenium) said he thought the guitar (my spruce top one) produced a very nicely balanced tone, but he thought it would be uncomfortable to put his arm around for long periods.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Jim is right -it is a big guitar!
If you have woodworking experience you can make the body less deep(thickness)and make a smaller size body by drawing a line 2mm in from the original plan all around the shape of the guitar!!
mike
Author:  MichaelBrock [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
The first few replies put the fear of cedar into me! My current guitar is a cedar top though and I think I'd like the first guitar to be cedar. If I knew for certain I would build a second (okay, it's likely, but not certain :D ) I'd consider spruce. My woodworking skills are decent and I'm patient so if I screw up the first top too badly, I'll practice on it and start again!

I like the idea of the Rodriguez 1976 plan. There appears to be quite a bit written on it (here and elsewhere) and David Schramm has done one of his "Online Apprentices" on it. I'll have to look into the size issue though. LMI has the dimensions listed with the plans; I'll need to figure out what exactly they represent and what the measurement means compared to my exprience with guitars.

How much difficulty is added by making it to 650mm scale rather than the 660mm of the plans?

Thanks for all of the replies!
Author:  MichaelBrock [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
I checked on the size issue and found that dimensions listed for the Rodriguez 1976 at LMI are close to the dimensions of my current guitar a La Patrie Etude. My exposure to classical guitars in general is very limited (Guitar Center.... :roll: ) and I don't have any appreciation for what represents a significant difference in size. The lower bout of the Rodriguez is .25" wider (14.76 vs 14.5), the body length is .25" longer (19.56 vs 19.25), and the body is .475" deeper (4.375 vs 3.9). Is my La Patrie also a "big guitar" or is that 1/2" difference in thickness what makes the Rodriguez "big"? My wife's Martin D-15 is 4.75" thick the lower bout and makes both of these look skinny.
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
MichaelBrock wrote:
I checked on the size issue and found that dimensions listed for the Rodriguez 1976 at LMI are close to the dimensions of my current guitar a La Patrie Etude. My exposure to classical guitars in general is very limited (Guitar Center.... :roll: ) and I don't have any appreciation for what represents a significant difference in size. The lower bout of the Rodriguez is .25" wider (14.76 vs 14.5), the body length is .25" longer (19.56 vs 19.25), and the body is .475" deeper (4.375 vs 3.9). Is my La Patrie also a "big guitar" or is that 1/2" difference in thickness what makes the Rodriguez "big"? My wife's Martin D-15 is 4.75" thick the lower bout and makes both of these look skinny.


Michael -

D-15's get help differently than classical guitars! laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe beehive

Those differences in size between the la Patrie and the Rodriguez are significant, but at least you aren't used to a small body like a Torres or something comparable - that would go about the same distance in the other direction.

Heh, go with the Rodriguez if you are happy with the size, and by all means with cedar, just take the care to keep it clean and gently treated. The Rodriguez plan is known for reliably leading to pretty nice guitars. The adjustable solera described in Courtnall's book works well with the plan - that is the direction we went in the Online Apprentice course. I'd be glad to send you detailed photos of any part of the process you'd like to see. The design uses a domed top with a flat perimeter and is straightforward to execute.

I'm building (he says wishfully) to the Romanillos plan now, but I liked the Rodriguez and would have no qualms about building more of them in the future.

Or, get a Torres plan. Mize well learn where all the fun begins! (One of my present batch of Romanillos guitars has a Torres top - just to see the difference - the one on the right)

Attachment:
P1010116.JPG
Author:  Jim Kirby [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Michael - p.s., forgot to mention. Tom Blackshear points out specifically what to change to do a 650 rather than a 660 right on the plan. It's a good plan.

Jim
Author:  jfrench [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any plan suggestions for a first build with cedar top?
Agree that if you're intent on making a cedar guitar, you're likely best off with the Rodriguez design.

Still though, making a spruce top instead is the best advice in this thread.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/