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COLLEGE STATION, Texas, Jan. 22 (UPI) -- A U.S. biochemist says he has uncovered the secrets of the unique sound of original Stradivarius and Guarneri violins.

Joseph Nagyvary, a professor emeritus of biochemistry at Texas A&M University, has spent 33 years trying to prove his theory that chemicals used on the instruments are responsible for the distinctive sounds of the violins, the university reported.

The research is published in the journal Public Library of Science.

Working with Renald Guillemette of the university's geology department and Clifford Spiegelman, a professor of statistics, Nagyvary obtained tiny wood samples from violin restorers and burned the wood slivers to ash.

Tests showed numerous chemicals in the wood, including borax, fluorides, chromium and iron salts.

"The presence of these chemicals all points to collaboration between the violin makers and the local drugstore and druggist at the time," Nagyvary said Thursday in a release. "Their probable intent was to treat the wood for preservation purposes. Both Stradivari and Guarneri would have wanted to treat their violins to prevent worms from eating away the wood because worm infestations were very widespread at that time."

Nagyvary said he believes the findings could change the way in which fine violins are made today.

-http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/01/22/Secrets_of_Stradivarius_violins_discovered/UPI-91351232685420/

Time to start drugging our instruments?

Sorry Michael my friend but this is old news and it looks like Nagyvary (name reminds me of an ex....) is at it again with the old Borax theory......

It seems that every year this comes up on the OLF - you will find some very humorous past threads in the archives if you search under Nagyvary.

I was thinking that I could add some of the magic to my guitars by using cut up Bounce drier sheets as side tapes.....

Anyway the last times we debated Nagyvary although Borax came up back then it was the European mini-ice age that was the secret to the Strad tone.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

From a tonal perspective I have had better success by drugging the player.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

Just about sprayed my morning tea over that one, Dave!



Yes, his findings make the news every few years.
If indeed the wood was treated, how could one prove causation?

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

LOL!

I think the real secret of Antonio Stradivari was that he started making violins at age 11 and made four of them a month till he was dead at age 90 or thereabouts.

Working like a dog for one's entire life isn't the instant easy answer that people in our modern society are looking for............

You got that right! Plus he had good teachers from the get-go.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I saw a show on the History INT channel about a group of gads from MIT where they studied this topic for 2 years Their final concussion was two fold and I believe it to be the true explanation of the instruments. First, the Spruce was grown during a solar cycle when the solar flares were at minimum for nearly 100 years leading to unusually slow growth rendering very tight growth rings in the Italian spruce of that time period. However many other instruments built form this same wood of this time frame with similar characteristics did not show the same sonic qualities. So the next conclusion was that Stradivari was an exceptional luthier and created through his talent a series exceptional instruments. The combination of the two factors make up the mystery

Seem this is just common sense to me. The man was talented beyond his peers.

Ahhhh, the myth of the 'magic' luthier rears its ugly head again.....

As to the most likely explenation, well, I won't tell you....

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Here is a film "The Mystery of the Stradivarius" by "Arte France and Accociates" that is very interesting. In this film they claim to have found metallic elements that is found all over the surface of his violins which include zinc, copper, and lead.
It just seems like every few years like Hesh says, someone has found THE secret. There are four videos in the production if you're inclined to watch them. I think they are just over rated myself, but I have never played one. The owners of Stradivari's fiddles fall in love with them.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Has he discovered another secret, or is this still last year's discovery just resurfaced?

Ahhh, NagyVary. I'll bet there's a lot of good limericks about that man and his discoveries recited among violin builders and collectors.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

There once was a man, Nagyvary
Who aimed to resolve an old query
So he whipped out his lucci
Checked from Helmholtz to Chladni
-At the store, just to find the best berry!

Then he took it on home right that instant
Pressed it right before starting to ferment
Took a sip, then a belch
Said "Look out Mr. Welch!"
This great formula's covered by patent!

How does this concern Stradivari?
Well we're talking of sly Nagyvary
Who found in the shellac
Just a small tiny spack
Tony's drool with a trace of mulberry!

Now THAT's the secret to Stradivarius' tone.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Nagyvary is mentioned briefly in the book "The Violin Maker" by John Marchese (an interesting book - worth a read if you happen to run across a copy).

I think it's only natural that Nagyvary, as a chemist, would center his research and analysis on "the sound" of Strads around varnishes, chemical wood treatment, etc. In the same regard, I'm sure that engineering-minded individuals who study these fine, old instruments might focus mainly on structural concerns.

Unfortunately in a world that desires the quick, simple solution...I think David LaPlante's post is closer to the truth than many would care to admit.

I saw a film on Stradivari years ago where they had a chemist look at the finish he used and found human blood in the finish.They said it was probably from his wife.I don't know why hey said that, but mabey the chemist could tell the sex of the blood as well.They claimed that the great sound came from the finish.

Nagyvary doesn't even know what a real, unmodified Stradivari sounds like.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

That's the great trick of it all. IIRC isn't there only one (thought to be) unmodified, playable Strad compared to the X modified ones floating around? It's certain that the man was an amazing craftsman, but it's a bit odd that the sound we're chasing after isn't even the same one he was trying to create!

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Now I have to wipe up the mess on my keyboard that was so very funny David. You should warn us when you are going to depart from your usual - right-to-the-point, thoughtful replies!

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Exactly! You have to know what you're chasing in order to catch it.

The one, unmodified Stradivari known to exist is a Viola.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Mark, I think the movie you are talking about is The Red Violin. Some years ago there was a documentary done by a scientist who had publish an article in scientific american on the secrets of stradivari.His conclusion after hundreds of different tests on varnishes, etc. was that stradivari had an exceptional ear and could 'tune' the body of the violin.He had measured dozens of these instruments and they all had different thicknesses throughout the top and back.He also found that the bridge acted like a band pass filter for the very high frequencies and demonstrated how he could adjust the sound bt making minor adjustments in the bridge.Since his ear was not good enough to hear these changes he had a well known concert violinist directing him.

I caught Nagyvary while he was doing a tour of speaking engagements years ago when his "study" was fresh news.
There were a dozen or so instruments on display, a violinist to demonstrate their tone by playing them and all sorts of
visuals and literature used to prove his findings.

At the end of it all, we walked away with the same deep respect for Stradavari as a luthier and the same questions
about Joe Nagyvary and his research.

The violins used were of poor to entry level quality, the finishes on them were among the very worst that I've ever
seen and the violinist who was on hand to demonstrate their tone was an amateur player with very poor technique
and I would hope that any experienced builder would agree that the player does play somewhat of a role in an
instrument being able to exhibit its tonal potential.

It was a joke and a complete waste of the funds used for the research.

Even though Stradavari has been credited with a huge number of instruments, we need to understand that all of
the instruments of great quality that came out of his shop were laid to his credit whether built by him personally or
by any of his apprentices, proteges or employees. Saying that the numbers were built by Stradavari's own hands would
be like saying that Christian Frederick Martin built all of the guitars that came out of his shop during his lifetime.

It's amazing to me, though, that even though he is credited with building between 1000 and 1100 instruments,
more than half are still accounted for. Those still in existence include not only violins, but violas, cellos and guitars
as well.

I think that we'll not know who has found the secret to Stradavari's tone until the violins being built today have been
around for a few hundred years, heavily reworked and modified, taken apart and reassembled for restoration's sake
and allowed to just plain be played into their old age. The mystery will always be part of the beauty and lure of his
violins.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I saw that film, but had the impression I was watching fiction.

At any rate, I've left blood on several guitars, and didn't notice any great improvement in sound.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard, it's because you do not have the patience to wait a few centuries.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

The film "The Red Violin" is excellent and I have it here on DVD. It has nothing to do with Antonio but is about a reddish violin that the maker, 300 years ago, mixed the varnish with his lover's blood.

You can read about this film here if you wish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Violin

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Ann Arbor Guitars