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| glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20618 |
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| Author: | R Bryan [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
Greetings from CT, USA. I am a lurking part-timer. With wood, I am most comfortable with Titebond, but I was wondering if there would be anyone who prefers to use epoxy for gluing up a scarfed head, veneers and headplate. I had mediocre results on my first attempt using titebond, and I think uneven clamping was to blame. When I started carving the back of the headstock, it was pretty funky. I have West System epoxy for CF rods, but are there going to have any advantages for the head "sandwich"? Strength? If you do use epoxy on multi-lam headplates, do you do this one layer at a time, or would you squeeze it all together at once? Thanks for reading- I appreciate everyone's contributions here! Rodger |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
There is certainly no reason why Titebond would not work - I have probably used it for the joints you mentioned more than anything else. Did you get gaps between your joined pieces? What exactly was the problem? There are certainly exceptions, but most people save epoxy for the fretboard/neck joint, in order to avoid introducing water into that joint. Some of my biggest mishaps have happened there - it is easy to overclamp and starve an epoxy joint, at which point you don't have much of a joint left. I'm tempted to go back to one of my regular glues there as well. For most construction, I tend to use Titebond, LMI White or Fish Glue, whichever bottle suits my fancy at the time. |
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| Author: | Joe Sabin [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
Roger, What do you mean by "funky?" When clamped up between two properly prepared surfaces, titebond almost vanishes into the grains of the joined woods. If you are carving and running into the titebond material at the joint, then I'd tend to agree you had a clamping issue. I have used titebond for new wood to wood joints for years without issue. Hot hide glue is "required" (or should I say proper) when restoring an antique joint, but all the new work I prefer titebond for it's workability during clamping. Also, is it possible it isn't quite dry? Sometimes titebond is a bit "rubbery" when it's not fully set. Perhaps another day will change the joint characteristics. |
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| Author: | R Bryan [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
Joe- The funky joint was a pocket of dried glue where the mating surfaces were curving at the back of the headstock. I was a little ambitious with my first build-trying to emulate Rick Turner's work. I didn't make a smooth transition from head to neck and the clamping pressure wasn't even. My plan this time is to make the transition a little neater, with a volute and veneers on top. If the surfaces are slightly curved, how do most people like to clamp the veneers so that the pressure is evenly distributed? thanks again. Rodger |
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| Author: | jordan aceto [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
I use hide glue or titebond (hide is better) for scarfs, titebond for headstock veneers. When glueing scarfs, i stick two brads through the waste area, on either side of where the nut will be. These hold everything in place when it is covered in slippery glue. I then just use four cam clamps on the bare wood to glue the scarf. The glue surface of both pieces needs to be PERFECT on a scarf joint, whatever it takes to get there. For headstock veneers, i use brads again, I just draw out the headstock shape and sink two brads outside of the outline. Then a mdf/plywood whatever is in the scrap pile caul with holes drilled for the brads and lots of clamps all around the perimiter. For a stack of multilayer veneers, i glue up the sandwich first. A trick for a really strong headstock joint, is to glue your scarf in the normal manner, and then run your headstock "ears" right down to the nut width. With veneers front and back this will give you an almost indestructable headstock. I stick brads in everything, I really dont like things slipping around on me. |
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| Author: | ChuckH [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
Howdy Rodger, Welcome in from out of the shawdows. I'm with Jordan, I used hide glue. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
I always use Titebond for the scarf joint and the veneers. I've fixed hundreds of broken head stocks with Titebond as well and have never seen one return to my shop. If your mating surfaces are perfect then the Titebond will do an excellent job. +1 on the use of brads when gluing up veneers. Use a piece of 3/4 inch plywood or some other very flat and strong material to make a clamping caul for the face plate and of course don't forget to caul the back side. |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
The problem you had with the veneer may due to the water in titebond. When you apply it to a large surface, it warps it and can make it very difficult to clamp flat. One thing that may help is dabbing some water on the dry side of the headplate to even out the moisture absorbtion but I have gone to epoxy on the headplate because of that issue. I use titebond for the scarf though. Epoxy can really soak into end grain and make a dark glue line. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
I use Titebond (or other similar PVA glue) for the scarf joint, but epoxy for every other joint on the neck, including headstock veneers. I'd rather not introduce the water (from the water-based glue) into these large-surface joints, especially where the neck is concerned. That may be nothing more than paranoia with regard to the headstock veneers, as others' experience shows that Titebond can work perfectly well there. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
I've made hundreds of necks with a scarf and Titebond. NONE have failed. I've used Hide,Fish,Poly, and gap filling CA! For various necks. But as stated above the joint must be as perfect as you can get it. Actually this applies to all glues except Epoxy! Geta fresh bottle of glue & take your time to make the joint. I use a jig on my Rikon bandsaw to cut the joints now. The jig is adjustable for any angle I use. Mike |
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| Author: | R Bryan [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
Thanks for the advice. Since I am building slowly (for myself) I will take the time, get the joints tight and make a clamping caul for the back veneers. peace, Rodger |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
It's well known on the lutherie forums that while failures with hide glue are always the result of poor technique, failures with other glues are always the fault of the glue itself. All seriousness aside, Titebond works just fine for scarfs and headstock veneers. If you are clamping a veneer to a curve in the back of the headstock, the caul has to be a very good fit, and clamped hard. I prebend the veneers (with heat) for backstraps in the rear of the headstock, but for typical 1/42" veneers this is not necessary. I'm usually working there with veneers that are about 1/16". |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: glue choices for scarf, veneer & headplate |
My backstrapping veneers are about as thick as Howard's, and I bend them on a pipe and glue them on with a cork coverd caul, fitted as accurately to the volute curvature as I can manage. The cork helps the caul conform somewhat better to the shape of the curvature, if there is any difference between the two. I glue the front and back veneers on at the same time, my cauls are 22 mm particle board, and I use 6 hefty C-clamps. It's a massve looking glue-up! |
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