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| As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20616 |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Ok, so after been advised or recommended to make more of valleys instead of peaks on the bracings, I carved/planed some more on the bracings as I "assumed" you ment. Hope this is better in your eyes ?? Feel free to comment !!! infact, Comment !!  I also ad some thin soundhole bracings as also was mentioned. Click on the photos for larger view. Attachment: bracingnew3.jpg Attachment: bracingnew1.jpg Attachment: bracingnew2.jpg Attachment: bracingnew4.jpg Attachment: bracingnew5.jpg Lars.
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Forgot to attach some "before" photos. so here are 2 before. Attachment: brace.jpg Attachment: bracing1.jpg
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| Author: | Eddie Lee [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Lars - How much did that change the tap tone? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Do you still like the tops responce????? |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
It looks great Lars - super clean too! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") ![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations") If I recall correctly someone had commented on the bridge plate size indicating that it was kind of large. If I also recall correctly this top is a little thin too. Ervin Somogyi is known for thin tops and larger bridge plates so in hindsight you may have the right size bridge plate after all. In any event I am sure that this will be a very fine sounding and looking guitar and an exceptional first! Bra jobbat min vän! |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Honestly it strange enough didn´t change much in top tone ?? the small change might be my way I am holding it. and I might feel it took away a smal part of the tap tone, I feel it was a tiny bit more responsive before, But like I said I might have held it differently or so ?? . And also I might have though it had a greater tone before, not sure, might be imagination, but still, the tap tone is really nice and it rings for like 2-3 seconds or so. from just a viewing it, how do you think it looks ? Hesh, we wrote in the same time !! again, Thanks for the kind words. Good to know I am in somog... league  .Lars. |
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| Author: | Rob Lak [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Hey Lars... i liked it better before... can you put some back on?  Ok, i know i'm gonna get kicked for this but... those lower two braces and the tone bars...... usually they as not perfectly parallel. Lars's looks pretty, but is there any reason to angle them differently? I'm hoping "No" for Lars's mental health. |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Rob, The bracing pattern is from Michael Payne:s SJ plan ! So the way they are angled are from that plan. Also as I have come to understand from reading, reading reading, is that you want to make the top or "whole guitar" as light as possible but still with an optimal stiffness. As I have seen from others on their first, the tops tend to be a bit "overbraced" and I guess so was mine ! atleast thats the impression I got when qritique was made "wish I am very happy for" one of the best way to learn ! Also Rob, I also I like the hights and sharp roundings etc as of before, but it might not have been the best thing for the sound as been mentioned. Lars |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
To me it looks fine now. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Lars Stahl wrote: Rob, The bracing pattern is from Michael Payne:s SJ plan ! So the way they are angled are from that plan. Also as I have come to understand from reading, reading reading, is that you want to make the top or "whole guitar" as light as possible but still with an optimal stiffness. As I have seen from others on their first, the tops tend to be a bit "overbraced" and I guess so was mine ! atleast thats the impression I got when qritique was made "wish I am very happy for" one of the best way to learn ! Also Rob, I also I like the hights and sharp roundings etc as of before, but it might not have been the best thing for the sound as been mentioned. Lars Hmmmm? there should be 2 1/8" inside between them at the X brace and approximately 1 13/16" inside between them at the bout intersection. This is a bigger spread at the bout than most designs but works great on this guitar. |
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| Author: | gozierdt [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Lars, I think it looks fine. From all my reading, I've gotten the idea that just before you go too far, and make the top too weak, you hear a flattening out/muddling/sound gets sort of mushy. That's the point to stop. I equate that in mechanical vibrations to lowering the "Q" (sharpness) of the main resonance, which will result in a more even response across the sound spectrum, rather than favoring one frequency. Sounds like you're hearing something like that. I'll bet it will sound great!!! And whatever, it's the experience you gain on the first couple of guitars that is the most valuable. The fact they usually sound good as well is a bonus. |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Michael. I was referring to the angle not how I have carved them ! And the angle of the braces are from your plane, as close as I possibly could, but I have carved the them in from the edge a bit more than the plan says on. Here is a photo on the bracings before starting to carve "accept for the X. This is by your plan. Its a good camparizon to the Now and then. Lars.[/attachment] Attachment: prebrace.jpg [attachment=0]bracingnew4.jpg
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
I was not referring to the carving. I was referring to the space between the tone bars. At the X-brace there should be 2 1/8" between them. Where the tone bars intersect the linings at the lower bout there should be 1 13/16" between them. Yours appear to be perfectly parallel to each other. They should be closer to each other at the lining than at the X-brace. but that is not a big issue they will be fine as you have them. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Looks much better now. |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Michael, here is a photo from Stew macs "plans" page Attachment: Small_Jumbo_Guitar_Plans_Detail2.jpg To my eyes its as I have it braced ! ?? "photo is before I thinned the braces" Lars. Attachment: bracing3.jpg
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Pretty darn close. If you followed all the dimensions on the top bracing plan then you will find that the tone bars are slightly closer to each other at the lining than they are at the X-brace. You may very well have them this way but if you did not follow all dimensions you could easily have them truly parallel. The key dimensions to avert the parallel issue is the two long dimensions at the right side of th top bracing pattern and the 2 1/8" dimensions at the tone bar to Xbrace intersection. if you followed thes then the tone bars are not parallel, they will be approx 5/16 closer to each other at the lining. |
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| Author: | John Hale [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Micheal in the originals where the tone bars taper towards each other as you move towards the lining, is this to make the area below the bottom tone bar looser? And what'd be the detriment to having parallel. |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Lars, it looks a lot better now. That should open up the sound and improve the tonal balance. |
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| Author: | JasonMoe [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
On a 1st guitar, i'd rather over-brace and last a lifetime, than under-brace and have something break and loose it. To me, as a beginner, I was happy to get one put together. The next one i'm being a little more creative and daring. I noticed too that the bracing is all the way to the edge of the plate. The sides need a place to sit. You'll proboly have to trim the ends a bit. I might build differently too, who know's. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
First, Thank you all for the replies. Jason, about over braced I was not saying its wrong on a first, all though, I am shooting for as a perfekt guitar as I can get. even if its my first ! I "personally" would not like to have a guitar that lasted a lifetime, and sounded bad or just "ok" would prefer to have one that lasted years sounding great. and if it were to break then I would probobly learn something from it. If you overbrace on purpose then its a different thing, but if you do it because you simply didnt have enough experience or "know how" then I would feel its the wrong approach. But in the end we are all different, so my way might not be anothers.  about the bracings being all the way to the ends, well the X is to be under the kerfing, and so is the big one over the soundhole, the tonebars are tapered to nothing and so are the fingers. But thanks for mentioning this, I see know I have forgotten to carve the ends on the flat brace on the top.  Sincerely Lars. |
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| Author: | Flori F. [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
gozierdt wrote: Lars, I think it looks fine. From all my reading, I've gotten the idea that just before you go too far, and make the top too weak, you hear a flattening out/muddling/sound gets sort of mushy. That's the point to stop. I equate that in mechanical vibrations to lowering the "Q" (sharpness) of the main resonance, which will result in a more even response across the sound spectrum, rather than favoring one frequency. Sounds like you're hearing something like that. I'll bet it will sound great!!! And whatever, it's the experience you gain on the first couple of guitars that is the most valuable. The fact they usually sound good as well is a bonus. I agree with the muddling/flattening out/mushy tone. I find it's a pretty distinct drop. (Cumpiano actually mentions this on his webiste, but it doesn't seem many people have noticed. He says: "At the end of the process all I hear is predominantly low and flappy, unfocused sounds. I know it sounds like a paradox--that I should be trying to extinguish the musical sounds from the top--but remember that at that stage the top is a "free membrane" rather than a "clamped membrane" (the other pertinent acoustical model is a "stretched membrane" like a banjo head). When the edges of the top are eventually secured to the rigid sides of the guitar. The musicality returns, believe me."http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newsletters/Issues/newsletter%2019.htm ) Lars, it looks good to me. Why not put it together and find out how it sounds? I too think you'll have a nice sounding guitar.
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
Lars, don't forget to drill a hole in the transverse brace for trussrod adjustment if you're using a rod that adjusts through the soundhole. |
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| Author: | Rob Lak [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
And are you making a magic tone enhancer brace? From what i read, you may want to add it later - so if you make one now you're all set. I probably got the terminology wrong, but it's the brace that sits at the bottom of the bridge plate... |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
John Hale wrote: Micheal in the originals where the tone bars taper towards each other as you move towards the lining, is this to make the area below the bottom tone bar looser? And what'd be the detriment to having parallel. One more time They are not and have never been truly parallel! They are in the same location they have always been in since I first released the OLF-SJ The lower tone bar tapers towards the upper tone bar as it approaches the linings. but not as much as many builders do. The reason for the wider spread at the linings is base/mid tone response. When I designed this body I built three prototypes out of Sitka/ Mahogany and varied the bracing pattern on each. One was a shallower X and steep tone bar arrangement. the Second was the X we have now with the tone bars closer at the linings and more towards the tail and the current version The current version had the best balance between mid tone and bass. The first was prototype was too loose in on the bass side and sounded a bit muddy. the second was good but mid tone seemed a bit week and I loved the third.Once again the tone bars taper towards each other at the linings by about 3/8" form X to lining. They are not true parallel ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") 
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: As advised I carved some more on the bracings, what say you |
I don't think they looked bad before. Of course what the heck can the peanut gallery add from just looks. General comments yes, but your the one with the top in your hands. Either way they both LOOK fine. |
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