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Rosette Woes Improving
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20607		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Rosette Woes Improving
You all know I have been chiseling out rosettes, left and right, don't you! gaah

Well, I figured I'd bring you up to date.
I thought I could salvage #2 rosette by taking out the outside rings and replacing them. I quickly discovered that it was more trouble than it was to re-make the whole thing.

Here I was trying to scrape out the offending outer ring.
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P1010405 (Large).JPG


That didn't work, so I chiseled the whole thing out.
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Then I started thinking about how long it takes to make all the little tiles for the rosette, and that I spent an inordinate amount of time radiusing the outside edges, one for the outside radius and one for the inside radius of the tile. I made a little tile clamp/carrier to use for doing the radiusing of the outside radius, and a disc sander for the inside radius. Here is the little clamp/carrier.
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P1010409 (Large).JPG
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P1010410 (Large).JPG


Here I'm using it to just touch the disc to sand the inside radius of the tile.
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Here it is ready to pivot on the post for sanding the outside radius.
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Holding the tile - ready to sand the radius.
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Beginning the sanding stroke.
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Next thread to finish up.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Finishing the sanding stroke.
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P1010419 (Large).JPG


Outside radius sanded.
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Bunch of tiles ready to add white purflings to top and bottom edges.
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P1010421 (Large).JPG


As usual, when dong piddly detail work, I forgot to take pictures. I made the rosewood tiles, and sanded the radii on them. glued white purfling lines to the outside and inside radiused edges of the logo tiles, and bent the purflings and wheat strips. Here are the tiles staged in the fitting block to make sure they are all right.
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P1010422 (Large).JPG


No pictures of the getting ready steps, but what I did was tack the center points of the purfling strips and wheat strips, already bent, with CA, to try to keep things together. Then I just put in, starting at the center opposite the fingerboard side, the tiles centered on the centerline to start, so it would look even when finished. Everything fit together just great, and nice and tight, as far as I could tell, so, per the instructions I got, I flooded it with CA, and let it dry.
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P1010437 (Large).JPG


Then, I planed and scraped it down to top surface.
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P1010439 (Large).JPG


Cleaned up pretty well, this time, thank goodness.
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Then I glued a Spruce plug in the gap under the fingerboard area.

I think #2 is now acceptable to me, so, hopefully, I can get on with this one.

The other thing I did today was to chisel out the rosette on #3. I tried patching it too, and it didn't work either. Oh, well, build and learn! [headinwall] [headinwall]

Thanks for looking.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Waddy,

I do not understand the reason for flooding with CA...

Mike
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
To glue the stuff together. I had failed twice, already, doing it with other glues, and each time I had purfling lines that did not get seated, so when I planed them down to top surface, I had big gaps with no purfling. It was why I chiseled them out to begin with. That .3 mm purfling gets pretty hard to deal with when it gets wet with thinned PVA or Fish glue,even when several pieces are glued together.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
So, you dry fit all the pieces first? Proud of the top surface? Surely there is glue below, right? But it sounds like you use the CA to soak and encase the rosette. BTW, what planer do you use?

Mike
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Yep, everything in place, and soak it with thin CA. It seeps into all the crevices, and wicks into the seams between the purfs and tiles. This was my first time to do it this way. I used a record, low angle block plane to do the preliminary leveling, then switch to a cabinet scraper when I get close to the top.
Author:  Marc [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Really nice work Waddy, great looking rosette. You went the extra mile by putting a radius on the top and bottom of each tile, looks like it worked, you got a really tight fit. Have you considered putting a radius on the log instead of the individual tiles.

How tall are your individual tiles?
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
I read somewhere about putting the radii on the log... Of course, that does mean you are limited to a certain rosette diameter (for that log). How does one do the tapers on each side of the log?

Mike
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Very nicely done Waddy bro and your rosette looks stunning! My hats off to ya! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Excellent design. It looks to me like you are inlaying it in a rather shallow pocket. It might sit in a little easier if you dig it more.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Nice looking rosette mr. cool little gadgets! It looks great, and i hope i didnt lead you astray by suggesting CA flooding. I know how fiddly it is to get everything in place when it is all obscured by titebond. Am i correct that you are doing this with a shop built non-powered circle cutter? If so , i am doubly impressed, cutting a nice curve through spruce or cedar with a blade is a challenge.

The radius jig is also very cool. A way around for people not commited to masochism is to glue your tiles in square(or rather, keystone shaped), and then kiss the edges with the end mill as you rout for your purfs/wheat/rope. Your way definately scores you more man points, and i think it is commendable to avoid the annoying whrrrrrrrr of routers whenever possible. Way to go.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
That is real nice, I think rosettes like that add a touch of class to the finished instrument. Now you've got me thinking that I would like to try doing something like that on my next one -- just a bit simpler, perhaps.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Mike O'Melia wrote:
I read somewhere about putting the radii on the log... Of course, that does mean you are limited to a certain rosette diameter (for that log). How does one do the tapers on each side of the log?

Mike


The side taper can be done with a block plane or sander, i always just approximate it, and it seems to work fine. Maybe someone here has a more consistant and predictable way?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Thanks for your comments, folks, I appreciate it.

I did the side taper on the logo log before gluing the halves together, since the log is only a half tile. I could make two logs and glue them up, but so far, no two logs have been exactly the same, so they look better if each half comes from the same log, since the irregularities are mirrored. I use a scraper marked for the inside diameter, and just scrape the flat angle into the side of the log, with the corner of the scraper resting on the bench. I tried doing the radius on the log, but it complicates things. Also, I have to make the little wood tiles to match, and I cut the angle on those on the band saw as I'm cutting them out. Then I sand the radii on those to match up to the size of the logo logs. I just figured I might as well just do the logo ones the same way. Saves a step, and it took me all of 10 minutes to do the whole batch with the little clamp.

Jordan, the CA worked great. Everything was nice and fit, and holding itself in the slot just fine, so that was the way to go.

Alex, you are right, but I had already thicknessed the top to about 2.5, and I didn't want to go too deep. As it is, it's about 1.4 deep. My parts were 2.0 mm, and some larger, so it makes things look very high. Some of the outside purfs were almost 4mm wide, because I didn't want to cut them more, because when some of that stuff gets down to 2mm, it wants to fall apart in your hand, particularly when you bend it. Once it is soaked in glue it stays together.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
Your perseverance is admirable. Great! I can't tell you how many times I've had to stop and start over on something, or rip it out, etc. Not so often, now, but the willingness to do it is an imperative to mastery in your work and for making progress.

I've gotten around some of your problems by taking a somewhat different route. On rosette that required a center band of tiles, I cut glued them together in wedges, then secured them on a work board and then cut the arcs. I used a circle cutter in the drill press, turning it by hand works well, or you can use the one you already have! Then I glue the other elements in place around the tiles. Then glue the whole thing in place.

I have no idea if its better to work this way, or to glue them up in the trough. The only advantage that I can see about my way is that I can determine if the results are satisfactory before I glue it into the soundboard! Saves me the hassle of ripping it out. gaah
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
To clarify, to plane the side taper into the logs, i clamp an upside down plane to my bench, and run the log through the blade. It seems easier to move the work when planing tiny things.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rosette Woes Improving
I thought about that, but I couldn't figure out how to control the angle. With the scraper, it takes a few strokes, but the scraper controls the angle, which is pretty critical. I'm not all that good at eyeballing stuff like that. The correct angle is 6.5*, and much variation shows when you put all those pieces together. If it's off, it gets progressively worse as you go.
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