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Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20496		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  archtop [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
A while back I asked a joining question, however it referred to archtops. Now, this current question here refers to a Classical top. As I've said in some past posts, I want to eventually make a Classical/Archtop Hybrid. The top will be made just like a CL but the back will be arched Maple.

I bought a set of cheap Euro Spruce for the top. I guess it would fall into the "bargain/practice" category, but boy does it ring like a bell!!! Reason I mention Hesh in the Subject Line is because back when I had my question about archtop joining he mentioned using some kind of tape method (I don't think he realized I was making an archtop :). Well Hesh, now I'd really like to hear about that tape method!!!

Here's the thing.... For this one build I was thinking of joining the top and back with Hide Glue. I've always used Titebond white glue. I've heard that while the Hide is drying it literally helps pull the joint together. Is that so? Also, can I do Hide without buying all of the million dollar pots and accessories? Would a funky old pot from my Mother's kitchen work? Any info is appreciated, as the only source I have about building anything but an archtop is the Cumpiano book. Are there any tutorials on joining with Hide using tape? Better yet, if there are members that have done just that I'd love to hear about your experience. Thanks!
-John
Author:  Paul Burner [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Hesh's tutorial on his tape method can be found here:

http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum ... orumTop%22
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Get a candle warmer, coffee-cup warmer, etc for $5 that stays close to temp and it'll do the trick. You can get an IR thermometer for $15 at a place like Harbor Freight (US) or Princess Auto (CA).
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Sorry John my friend I was out plowing snow..... [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] gaah :D

Paul bro thanks for posting the tape method link. There is also a great toot on Sylvan Wells (Google him) site about the tape method.

Here is a HHG toot that you should read: http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12088

I use the tape method with Titebond or HHG with HHG being the preference these days. I suspect that it would also work well with Fish glue too.

Yes HHG will actually, as it cures, have a bit of a self-clamping affect which is one of the very cool things about this ancient glue. There is an initial, about 10 seconds or so, tack too that is very useful when positioning braces.

Just be sure to have a well prepared joint first, no glue that we want to use will be a substitute for a well prepared joint.
Author:  Eric Mathre [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
I remember reading somewhere that for tape-joining like this, 256-gram
strength HHG is preferable, whereas the 192-gram strength stuff is
better for the rest.

I believe the 256-gram glue has more of the "self-clamping effect", but
less open time.

I have a can of Behlen HHG, which is the 256 and some 192,
which is what LMI sells.

Anyone else do this?

(By the way, if anyone is curious, the number refers to the weight required to
get a standard needle to penetrate a standard distance into solidified, room
temperature bunch of glue, if I'm not mistaken.)

Eric
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Here's a good pot. I fill it with water and put the HHG in a jar and set it in the pot and put the jar lid between the burner and jar. Some weight the jar of HHG with Stainless nuts or bolts and I think marbles maybe too. I also use it for potting pickups with wax in the jar. Scotch 233 tape works very well as does the binding tape. NAPA or a Auto Body Supply should carry the 233 tape and it's less then painters tape.
http://www.amazon.com/Rival-4071-WN-32- ... B00006IUXU
http://www.shop3m.com/70006246493.html
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
The Wells technique works great, I just joined two tops with it and was well satisfied.
TJK
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
This may be a bit OT (but not much). I use that spanish clamping method (rope and wedges). I like it a lot. BUT, sometimes seam alignment can be a problem. Does anyone use a bottom (and possibly top) slats to assure flat joints?

Mike
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
I used to clamp one half to the glue-board, drive some nails against the outer edge of the second half, and then bend them to somewhat clamp the joint - even with this not much pressure and fish flue, I got invisible glue lines. I just joined a top and upgraded my "jig" by planing a slight taper on that outer edge. Then aligned it to the first half at 99%, and clamped a second block against the taper.
I found out that a hand push is sufficient to wedge it in perfectly and very tightly. After I put the glue, I wedged it by hand, then placed some 40 pounds of weight on it and then hammered the bottom to make sure it's dead jammed. Will see tomorrow how it worked.
Author:  archtop [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Thanks for the comments everyone! I saved all of the tutorials to my hard drive and I'm gonna check them out tomorrow. Hesh, you said that you mainly use HHG these days. Have you noticed any differences in your builds, all things being equal? For me it's amazing that boards can be joined using tape! I want to try reading up on it a little more. Thanks guys!
-John
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
archtop wrote:
Thanks for the comments everyone! I saved all of the tutorials to my hard drive and I'm gonna check them out tomorrow. Hesh, you said that you mainly use HHG these days. Have you noticed any differences in your builds, all things being equal? For me it's amazing that boards can be joined using tape! I want to try reading up on it a little more. Thanks guys!
-John


John bro if you mean tonally here is my answer: I use HHG where it makes sense to me to use it and that includes all bracing, bridge plates, and for gluing on the bridge. For other applications such as installing the top and back plates, gluing the blocks I am not fast enough or jigged-up properly to use it there.

IMHO for bindings it makes no sense to use HHG and likewise for fret boards I use epoxy trying to not induce any warping or back bow that - can - result at times..... from using a water based glue.

What I like about HHG for where I use it is that it is easier for me to clean up than any other glue that I have used. There is also the possibility that since HHG dries very hard and has a very thin glue joint with low dampening it is more efficient at transferring vibration. Can I prove it - no. Can I hear the difference in a HHG braced guitar over a Titebond braced guitar - no. Others may I am sure but I have to be honest as to what I hear and I don't hear a difference or I am not sure that HHG is responsible for what I do hear.

Most of all for me once you start using HHG it is very easy to use and actually kind of fun too. With bracing there is an initial tack that happens too that is greater and faster IMHO than the tack that you get with Titebond and this initial tack helps hold things in place for a few seconds for mortals like me with only two hands.

During my time here on the OLF I somehow got the idea early on that HHG is for advanced users. JJ, Mario, Colin and others convinced me otherwise and of course these guys were right. It's never to early to start to experience the superior results, ease-of-use, and reversible/serviceable bond that HHG provides.

Lastly - it's tradition and I am a guy who digs traditions. :D
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
I've used 3 different methods of joining plates, from the dedicated board with wedges along the edge, to the spanish tourniquet, and have now settled on the tape method. Now to make sure the plat is aligned at the seam, I use my go bar deck with a piece of plywood over the top of the seam and about 15 gobars. I have a 1-1/2" thick MDF flat dish that I sit the plates on, tape side down, wax paper between the plates and the supporting members. I'm also using fish glue but I don't think this would be a problem with HHG either, just need to be prepared.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Boards With Tape? Hesh?
Mike O'Melia wrote:
This may be a bit OT (but not much). I use that spanish clamping method (rope and wedges). I like it a lot. BUT, sometimes seam alignment can be a problem. Does anyone use a bottom (and possibly top) slats to assure flat joints?

Mike


I use a wedge method (no ropes) and I am not sure what you mean by bottom slat but I lay it out on perfectly flat press board with news paper on it and use two 6in wide slats of press board right along the glue line on either side to keep it flat.

The tape method looks very cool, the only thing I don't like about it is the potential for tearing out fibres removing the tape.
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