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Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
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Author:  Darryl Young [ Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
A piggyback on Hesh's "Dream Guitar" thread.

Not everyone's favorite sound is the cut of a great bluegrass guitar.......but that doesn't mean you couldn't build one! So how would you build the ultimate bluegrass guitar with that great bass cut and keep a fairly balanced treble response? What woods, bracing, body style, etc. would you choose? Would you change your standard bracing layout?

Just for fun, how would you design a 000/OM body to get the best bluegrass sound possible? Can you create the traditional bass cut of a dreadnaught? If so, is the tradeoff you loose volume? How would you do it if the order came through today?
Author:  BruceHerrmann [ Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl, we were just talking about this over on the Martin forum and several members have 30's 000-28's that they
flatpick and swear-by for lots of volume. They say they can keep up with other bluegrass instruments. It's assumed
that the 24.9 scale, the Red spruce top with advanced X have a lot to do with it. I have to agree that the ultimate
bluegrass guitar, if you are purely going for sound and not looks, does not have to be a D size guitar. There may even be
some great archtops now being built that would do the trick. The problem with bluegrass is history and tradition. It's
hard to be taken seriously without the right instrument. It may be the one musical style that places so much
emphasis on not only tone but the type and size of guitar. Many will argue that this is for a good reason. I'm just not
convinced that you have to play a D-28 or D-18 style guitar to hold your own in a bluegrass band.
Just thought of another musical tradition that is closely tied to the instrument, the jazz groups that emulate the French
musical scene of the 30's and 40's, got to be a Selmer there.
Nothing wrong with these preferences, Django's music is hard to copy on anything but an instrument like he played.
Sorry to get off-post, just got me thinking.
Bruce
Author:  pharmboycu [ Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
BruceHerrmann wrote:
Darryl, we were just talking about this over on the Martin forum and several members have 30's 000-28's that they
flatpick and swear-by for lots of volume. They say they can keep up with other bluegrass instruments. It's assumed
that the 24.9 scale, the Red spruce top with advanced X have a lot to do with it. I have to agree that the ultimate
bluegrass guitar, if you are purely going for sound and not looks, does not have to be a D size guitar. There may even be
some great archtops now being built that would do the trick. The problem with bluegrass is history and tradition. It's
hard to be taken seriously without the right instrument. It may be the one musical style that places so much
emphasis on not only tone but the type and size of guitar. Many will argue that this is for a good reason. I'm just not
convinced that you have to play a D-28 or D-18 style guitar to hold your own in a bluegrass band.
Just thought of another musical tradition that is closely tied to the instrument, the jazz groups that emulate the French
musical scene of the 30's and 40's, got to be a Selmer there.
Nothing wrong with these preferences, Django's music is hard to copy on anything but an instrument like he played.
Sorry to get off-post, just got me thinking.
Bruce


I'm not a luthier, but I hope you don't mind me posting a player's perspective on this.

Not to name drop, but I've been fortunate enough to play and record with what many consider to be *THE* bluegrass guitar. What I can tell you about this instrument is that it's not the guitar everyone thinks it is. It's not a "hoss" that everyone is looking for. It's a delicate, dry sounding instrument whose strength depends on whether the player knows how to work with it.

A list of requirements for the best bluegrass *only* guitar-- It would be a dread, BUT slightly shallower-- maybe a 1/4" down in depth all the way around. The neck would be of a slightly shorter scale-- not necessarily 24.9", but possibly 25" or 25.25"-- I believe this adds a little "sweetness" to the tone. It needs to be narrow at the nut-- 1 11/16 max-- but wider at the fretboard and bridge-- just *under* 1 3/4 at the bridge. The neck has to be *THIN*-- just covering the truss rod, and if it's a non-adjustable T rod dovetail neck, all the better. Braces would be standard position (erroneously called "forward shifted") and scalloped. Linen strips inside instead of wood, back 2 bottom braces shaved down. Soundhole enlargement is not critical in my mind-- if the instrument is overly bassy, it could help to have it enlarged. If not, no reason to hack away at the soundhole. Old growth Brazilian B&S, old growth Adi top, one piece quartersawn mahogany neck, ebony fretboard and bridge with bone nut and saddle. Hide glue throughout and nitrocellulose lacquer finish.

That said, that is going to the list *most* people would want. I've already had my ultimate bluegrass guitar built by Lance and it serves many more purposes than just bluegrass. I think the more experienced players (note, not necessarily "better", just more experienced) will realize that yes, you want that bass roll-off but you also want a midrange "honk" and "throaty" sound too as well as highs that don't overpower due to the bass roll off. Oddly enough, I think the best steel string instruments behave more like classical guitars-- a slightly dull attack and shorter decay times.

All that said, I think bluegrass does a disservice in that it teaches people to look for the loudest guitars around. I keep telling people, "that's what microphones are for." Louder is not necessarily better and it all comes down to what the guitar can offer mated with what the player can pull out of it.

John
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
I don't know Bluegrass guitars, I build other kinds, but I know enough that I really like Mario's work. Especially his century guitar. That one was sweet.

Never played his work, or other "Bluegrass" guitars, but I what I know of the man.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Does Mario specialize in bluegrass guitars? What size does he build?

Seems someone had a post here at one time that was using Lutz for a bluegrass guitar.....sound familiar?
Author:  douglas ingram [ Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl Young wrote:
Does Mario specialize in bluegrass guitars? What size does he build


That's the only kind of guitar he builds. His website is easy to find and describes what he does better than I possibly could.

http://www.proulxguitars.com/index.htm
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Anyone want to share how they would create the bluegrass sound?

BTW, I went to Mario's site and noticed he uses and extra brace on his soundboard. anyone else done this......or played one of Mario's guitars with teh extra brace?
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
That extra brace is the Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer (PMTE) and Mario shared it with us and some OLFers do use these as a result.

I played one of Mario's last summer and it was one of the very finest guitars that I have ever played.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Hesh, would you care to describe how the brace affects the tone (how it changes the sound)?

Has the PMTE been used only on Dreadnaught sized guitars or has anyone tried it on an OM?
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Anyone used Lutz on a bluegrass guitar? How did you like the sound?
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl Young wrote:
Hesh, would you care to describe how the brace affects the tone (how it changes the sound)?

Has the PMTE been used only on Dreadnaught sized guitars or has anyone tried it on an OM?


I've used a similar brace on my guitars for about ten years now, and they were being used by others for many years over here before that to my knowledge, but recently they seem to have acquired Mario's name, but I don't think he's claim to have invented the concept. Putting a brace behind the bridge patch, or combining a bridge patch and brace, is a practice that is first seen in the late 18th century.

Here's one on an OM and on a OOO both used for fingerstyle.

Attachment:
Top 2.jpg


Attachment:
007 (4).jpg


Colin

PS from a UK persective the best bluegrass guitar is the one that's under the wheels of the pickup. ;)
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl Young wrote:
Hesh, would you care to describe how the brace affects the tone (how it changes the sound)?

Has the PMTE been used only on Dreadnaught sized guitars or has anyone tried it on an OM?


I honestly don't know Darryl my friend since I have yet to use one and have no basis for comparison. I have played a couple of guitar with the PMTE installed and they sounded great but I did not have the opportunity to play them without it. idunno

In addition to Colin I know that JJ uses the PMTE so he would be a good one to ask too.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Colin, your post confused me a little so I went back to Mario's site and checked out the brace pic again. (here it is below) So which is the magic tone enhancer......the brace under the bridge or the extra brace on the right-hand side of the bridge plate? I assumed it was the extra brace to the right of the bridge till I read Colin's post.

Image
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
The PMTE brace is the one directly below the bridge plate and runs perpendicular to the tops grain lines.

It's my understanding that Mario makes one of these braces for every single guitar BUT, he doesn't install them unless they need it. Meaning, he builds the entire guitar, finish and all. Strings it up and then decides if he will add the brace. It's one of the last things he does to get his signature sound. Some may need it, some may not. But that's his deal I'm pretty sure.

Maybe JJ knows, he's had a fair amount of communications with Mario over the years about hid (Mario's) building process' and designs.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl,
I finished a Rosewood Dred with Lutz a month ago. My first Dred with the stuff. I had some knowledgeable people play it and everyone liked it a lot. I did too. Wish I had a sound clip but it shipped already. I think Lutz is a fine choice for a Bluegrass guitar. I'll use it again.
TJK
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Daryl,

Are you planning out your own build for a Bluegrass guitar? If so, I feel compelled to point out that Mario is on record as saying that the final outcome of any guitar is the sum of EVERY decision that is made, and EVERY aspect of its execution.

The bar behind the bridge plate is just one element of many, so it goes without saying that one shouldn't put all the emphasis on just the one element.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Agreed Douglas. I do want to build one some day. My first will not be a BG guitar. I am interested in how you produce that great bass cut like you hear on some old Martins.
Author:  Brad T [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Darryl Young wrote:
Agreed Douglas. I do want to build one some day. My first will not be a BG guitar. I am interested in how you produce that great bass cut like you hear on some old Martins.


Adirondack top, EIR, Brazilian or Honduran Rosewood B&S, scalloped forward shifted bracing, bone nut and saddle, and a high enough of an action so you can go at it with a heavy pick. It wouldn't hurt if you could pour in 75 years of hard playin'! And it's gotta be a dread. You can get big sound out of the smaller boxes, but you just are not going to see too many grassers on stage with anything other than a dread.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
...and strong fingers! You gotta have strong fingers with fingertips of steel, to play a guitar like that clean.

That won't be me, much as I wish that it could be.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Of course, the brace has been used for ages...that's not the unique feature. What Mario discovered and so kindly shared is that one can add the PMTE after the guitar is strung up and initially setup. BTW, it was Bryan Kimsey who named the brace...Mario is much too humble to be so bold! Nonetheless, I'm happy to give credit where it's due. I believe that Bryan retrofits guitars with such braces for those who can't stop tinkering with their guitars.

Those who have adopted the brace, make it up during the normal bracing procedure but don't install it just then! On about half of my guitars, I have installed the brace up to 3 months later. I just lay a bead of HHG on the heated brace and hold it in position blindly through the soundhole for a few minutes until it tacks itself down. It's amazing how it can improve an otherwise listless tone. I've never installed one on a guitar with which I was pleased....could go either way possibly?

What Hesh said on Mario's guitar...very light and barked like a Mastiff! It was my favorite sounding and playing guitar at the Ann Arbor meeting.
Author:  RaymundH [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Mine is a Studio 46 Dread from Canadian luthier Mike Levesque.

I was so impressed with them I ordered Honduran Rosewood/Adirondack after listening...Shhhhhh...Please don't tell the wife laughing6-hehe

Ray
Author:  gullywompr [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
pharmboycu wrote:
BruceHerrmann wrote:
It may be the one musical style that places so much
emphasis on not only tone but the type and size of guitar. Many will argue that this is for a good reason. I'm just not
convinced that you have to play a D-28 or D-18 style guitar to hold your own in a bluegrass band.
I think bluegrass does a disservice in that it teaches people to look for the loudest guitars around. I keep telling people, "that's what microphones are for." Louder is not necessarily better and it all comes down to what the guitar can offer mated with what the player can pull out of it.
I play bluegrass, but never on stage with microphones. It is the local jam session that requires volume. At these events, people congregate in large groups, and some of the other instruments can be pretty loud. Last time I was in a circle with four guitars, two banjos, two fiddles, a mandolin and a doghouse bass. When it's time for your solo, you need some bark.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
im not really sure how valuable this is to the conversation, but sean watkins of nickel creek plays an OM made by dana bourgeois. ive heard him play that guitar plugged in on stage, unplugged on stage, and stood next to him in a crowd on the street while he played. volume or projection were never problems. hes not the biggest guy in the world, so maybe thats why he likes the OM, but it sounded great and i could definitely hear it. just wanted to throw that out to all of the dreadnought snobs out there beehive .
Author:  Alan [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Don't know how many dreadnaught snobs there are here...I haven't seen many pictures of D's or much discussion of them. I was beginning to wonder if they had been banned from the forum. But that's OK 'cause I've seen some real purty guitars here.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Ultimate Bluegrss Guitar Design
Alan, I agree with you......I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a Dreadnaught that a member of this forum has built. I've not been a member too long so I'm sure there has been. Certainly no Dreadnaught snobbery around here! <smile>
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