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Finger plane Flat or convex?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20392		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Steve Davis [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Finger plane Flat or convex?
Just wondered if you could only have one which one.
I am not planning any archtops violins or mandos
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Curved, without a doubt.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Curved. I use the 18mm and 12mm (blade size) all the time, 10mm seldom, and 8mm never. The 12mm seems to be my favorite. I like to use them for everything i can. I do a lot of heel shaping with the 12mm, it does a great job of carving a nice gracefull stilleto without having to put much thought into it, the shape of the tool just works. It makes quick work of the transition from neck to peghead also.

The only problem they have is lame stock blades. The violin guys seem to just expect to replace them, many of them grind their out of power hacksaw blades. You can buy little blades like this for cheap though, ron hock, japan woodworker, and saint james bay tools are all good sources.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Well I'll be the odd man out then.... :D I like the flat finger planes, also the 12mm and 18mm here are my most used sizes.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
me to on the flat. But I tell ya I reall like working scallops (when I do them any more) with my convex
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Michael Dale Payne wrote:
me to on the flat. But I tell ya I reall like working scallops (when I do them any more) with my convex


Yep I agree but since I usually don't scallop I use the flat ones.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Ideally, i would have 18 and 12 in both flat and curved, and 10 and 8 just in curved. I get by with a set of curved ones just fine, but the flats are handy. There is a larger flat available also, 22.5mm blade with more parallel sides than the others that looks pretty fun. Stew mac doesnt carry them, but some violin tool suppliers do.

If i were to start from scratch, i would check out the violin makers planes at saint james bay tools. They come in a bunch of sizes, some with cool side handles and palm braces. Some people find them a bit funky (rough castings, big mouths) but they have that old violin shop charm, and everything i have bought from them works wonderfully.
Author:  Frei [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
This be it, save your thumb knuckle (I use a small vise grip):

Image [clap]
Author:  ChuckG [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
I have both and each one is better that the other at something. I generally use the convex one the most, though.

Chuck
Author:  Ken C [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
I use my flat one a whole lot more than my convex one. But then I tend to use a plane and/or scraper where others may just use sandpaper.

Ken
Author:  cphanna [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
My hunch is that it depends entirely on your intended use for the planes, and if budget isn't an issue, you might want some of each. But it's only a hunch. I'm an archtop enthusiast, so naturally my little planes have curved bottoms. If I were doing tons of brace work on flat tops, I might come at this from an entirely different point of view.
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
your mileage may vary, but not much

How do you sharpen a curved edge ibex blade?
Author:  Mark Groza [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
A curved stone.But they are hard to keep true also.I just use a straight 10mm ibex for most my braces.My guitars are flat tops so far. :) If i scalloped my braces, i would get a curved plane though.I don't scallop.
Author:  archtop [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Being the plane junkie that I am I have some input here....

The plane that Frei posted is a beautiful little piece of work made by St. James. It is convex. I have a couple of Ibex too and they're a quality product but I like the St. James better because it's a lot more comfortable to work with over long periods of time. Another "go to" convex I have is an old Stanley 100 1/2. It's also one of the best in my stable. Only problem is, the collectors are driving the prices higher and higher on these.

If you want to go flat, then there are some other choices. As others have already stated you can get an Ibex. The Kunz is another great choice that is based on the old Stanley 100 and costs about $20-25. It has a "squirrel-tale" too! :)

If you wanna go even cheaper you can walk into most hardware stores today and get a Stanley 12-101. It is like a modern day #100, sans squirrel-tale. Here it is for under $10!
http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-12-101-Sm ... B00002X1ZC
I know a very talented luthier (who shall remain nameless) that uses this plane to do some brace trimming work. I also own one and after tuning it it is perfectly capable.

The next option is to check Lee Valley and look at their "Little Victor" planes. They sell them in flat and convex for around $30-40. They also have squirrel-tales.

And the last option.... if you want to treat yourself to a real nice toy; Lie-Nielsen. I have their "Convex Sole Block Plane". It's their take on the Stanley 100 1/2. Thing is, it is only slightly convex. Certainly not as convex as the original 100 1/2. Maybe that's a good choice for you because it's kind of convex but kind of flat? :) But if you want it completely flat, then you should get their "Model Maker's Block Plane". Yes, Lie-Nielsen can be pricey, but they have extremely high standards, they're consistently reliable, don't require 10 hours of honing after purchase and they will outlive us all! :)

As you can tell from my post, I love planes. If you have any more questions, ask.
-John
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
John, I do have some questions. I contacted Stew-Mac and LMI about tools for sharpening the blades for the convex Ibex planes. BTW, who ACTUALLY makes the Ibex planes? I could find nothing with a Google search! I assumed it was a company named Ibex.

Stew-Mac told me that the edge is not curved, just the bottom of the plane. [headinwall] LMI agreed that it was a problem, but did not sell a tool (or stone) for doing this.

Given the size of the blades, I assume it it more of a technique than some kind of tool. Can you help me here? (Mark, I could not find curved stones).

Given the wide use of these planes, surely someone has done this?

Mike
Author:  Steve Davis [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
I saw a guy on a video clip honing a blade with a leather clad wooden paddle and some kind of honing compound......all new to me. How about cutting a gouge/groove with the blade...pretty deep...line the (groove which is hopefully the same shape as the iron) with emery paper and go at it??? never tried it but it might work
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
That seems like a good idea.... sort of like this
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
-
Author:  jordan aceto [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Little blades like this are not hard to sharpen freehand. First flatten the back and then just roll the bevel from one side to the other as you drag it across a stone or sandpaper. Takes about 15 seconds.

-Slip stones- are what curved stones for shapening gouges and molding plane irons are called, you can easily get by without them for the blades we are talking about.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
TonyFrancis wrote:
You can hone a curved edge on a flat stone. And I much prefer it to honing like one would a gouge or whatever.

Rob Cosman has a DVD where he shows how to hone a scrub plane blade. Same principal, just a tighter radius and smaller blade. I think the Lee Valley small blade holder is neat for this. Put the blade in the holder and the holder in the guide, and rock the guide.



Talking about this guide?

Yes, I could use that with flat edges in my veritas honing guide. Not sure it will work with curved edges...

Mike

Oops... what do mean by rock the guide? (assuming the veritas guide)

Edit: I guess your are talking about the Mark II with the camber roller. I have the other system. Guess I will need to invest in the MK II.
Author:  cphanna [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Mike, if you have a curved bottom plane with a straight-edged iron (I think that's what you're asking about), just advance your blade through the plane mouth and use a pencil to scribe the curvature of the plane sole onto the blade. Then grind off the corners to your scribed line, and hollow grind the bevel in those areas--being careful to cool the blade in water frequently. Once all that is accomplished, you can level the back and hone the edge freehand in the length of time it takes to read this thread. Seriously. It's not hard to do it free hand on a flat stone. I made my carving plane blades from pieces of industrial hack saw blades. It took a little time to get the initial shape right, but none of it was difficult, and subsequent honing sessions are quick and painless.
Patrick
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
Its actually a curved bottom plane with a curved edge blade. Thanks for the input. :)

What amazes me is that so many people use the Ibex finger planes and so little is known about sharpening them. Or, this a "droll" subject. :? However, I do believe that there are two reasonable solutions. Hand honing (given the size of the blade, this seems reasonable), and jig honing using something like the Veritas Mk II honing jig and the cambered roller attachment.

I wish I knew this before I bought the other Veritas jig... but that's my fault since I did not do the "due diligence" research. However, hopefully, others will find this thread and make the right choices. [:Y:]

If you buy the flat blade, flat sole finger plane, then you might want the Veritas Mk II and the the "small blade" holder. If you go convex, with curved blade, then you will want all of the above plus the cambered roller attachment (for rocking).

BTW, I do not think you can buy the Ibex curved bottom with a straight blade and so on. Nothing to stop you from ordering a straight blade later, but not sure it would work well. Does seem to me you could use a curved blade in a flat bottom finger plane however (only referring to Ibex).

Mike (Steve, sorry for hijacking your thread, but I do believe all of this info helps in making the decision, don't you?)
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
The problem with honing with a jig like the veritas, is that you want the curvature of the blade to match the curvature of the plane. Using a jig, you are stuck with the results the jig gives you. There is lots of information on this at the violin makers forums- maestronet, the violin section of mimf- look for michael darnton's name, and do whaterver he says(which is mostly what cphanna and i have said).

The veritas roller is designed to give a very slight curvature to larger plane blades, just enough so that the edges don't dig in to your work, mimicking the effect of a worn waterstone with a slight hollow in the middle. I don't think this is the droid you are looking for.

With the flat ibex planes, you do want a very slight curve to the blades, just like the veritas gives. This keeps the edges of the plane from gobbering things up.

In general, with small planes you want the blade to be ever so slightly more curved than the sole.
Author:  jordan aceto [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Finger plane Flat or convex?
One more thing, the factory grind on my ibex blades was bordering on too steep- causing the flat of the bevel to ride on the work and force the blade up in to the plane body when used vigorously.

Just like any bevel down plane, you need to make sure that the bevel is acute enough to keep the buisiness end in the work. Imagine a standard 45 degree bench plane, now grind the blade to say, 60 degrees, you can see that the point of the blade will not contact the work, and you will just rub the back of your bevel on the wood. Whichever blades you use, keep that bevel acute enough.

I think of ibex planes as being a plane kit, that you need to finish yourself (better blades with correct grinding and honing, flatten the bed, file mouth if necessary, palm handles for 18mm and up) to get the max out of them. They are a great design, so it is worth it to get them really singing. I hope this helps a little, i was frustrated with mine for a while and struggled in the dark until i arrived at total planing satisfaction.
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