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| Author: | archtop [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Neck Laminating Questions |
Pretty soon I'll be attempting my first laminated neck. It will be comprised of 3 pieces of moderately flamed maple. BTW, it's an archtop guitar. I'd like to do what I've seen done on so many of the archtops I admire, and that's putting some darker strips between the three maple pieces. Here's a perfect example from an old Gibson Johnny Smith: Attachment: 62_SBJS_neck.jpg I've been told that those dark strips are sometimes walnut. I've also been told you can use many things and dye them as dark as you need to. What I would like to know is how do I go about looking for this wood? Obviously I do not need large quantities. Dimension-wise I'm confused. Do I just buy something the same size as my neck except a lot thinner? Where would they sell such a thing? I remember reading a D'Angelico plan and the lam strip was 1/16" wide. I can't say if that's the case on this Johnny Smith. Kind of a lame question, but like I said, I've never made one before and I don't know how to go about it. For the guys on this board that have made laminated necks, what process did/do you use? How do you go about it? And this goes for everyone, not just archtop guys. Would love to hear some of your experiences. Thanks! -John P.S. The picture I used belongs to John Stewart of http://www.myjazzhome.com |
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| Author: | Marc Lupien [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I have used mahogany veneers to have that kind of look on electrics. These necks are very stable. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Hey Arch, Many of these modern necks use black fibre for those strips. It comes in many thickness from .005 upto what ever you want. I think that Bob at RC Tonewoods is now carrying it and I have been carrying .020 x 6 x 36 sheets for a few years now as well, in black, white, blue green and red. I also have more coming in .010 and .015. I brought some black in that was .125 for a customer so there might be a bit more there yet as well. You can also use solid woods, just rip them down on your bandsaw or tablesaw and run them through a thickness sander. Shane |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Black walnut is widely available as veneer sheets (Rockler, Constantine, Woodcraft etc.), in the common .023" thickness and flat-sawn, which you want in order to have the proper orientation. I've used it on 5 piece maple and cherry necks. Otherwise wood veneers has a wide range of species and thicknesses. 1/16" seems thick to me for your lams. As Shane points out .020" or .030" black fiber sheets can be used as well and are commonly available. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I made a load of walnut and maple necks with black fiber strips in them, and the stuff looks perfect on edge (as used in necks). I got it from Shane (I was also the one who ordered the 1/8" stuff). |
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| Author: | archtop [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Great answers guys. Thanks. I wasn't hip to the fiber method. That's interesting. Before the fiber option was around I assume that luthiers must've just ripped whatever wood they chose to use as the lam? -John |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I laminate most of my necks,as they are more stable that way. I noticed that Gibson does it alot.Even on they're pauls.I do it mainly to get away from those ugly scarf joints at the nut and have a strong neck.I just made an ASH neck for my next acoustic that is laminated with 3 flat sawn boards.So the neck is now quartersawn.Talk about strong,they make baseball bats out of ASH 
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I wouldn't use fiber. It lacks the strength of wood, and will expand and contract differently from the wood next to it. I'd be concerned about it opening up with climate changes. You can get 1/16" veneer in most of the common N. American hardwoods. Another way to go is get orphaned or low grade guitar sides; ones that were low graded for being flatsawn are ideal. Of course, it helps to be able to thickness it, either with a planer or sander. Or, add a bandsaw and you can resaw and thickness from lumber. Or, you can resaw to that depth (~4") on a table saw by flipping and sawing both sides with a narrow kerf blade. |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
The 1/16" veneer that Howard talks of can be had at Certainly Wood in New York. Good folks. I as Howard would not feel good about a fiber strip that went all the way through the neck. Wood to wood is much prefered. If you only inlaid the strip a short way into the neck it would work but that's a pain. ( Make sure you inlaid it deeply enough so you didn't lose it when shaping etc. ) Also you would still have the problem of movement and while if inlaid a small amount it might not be a problem structuraly I bet you would be able to feel the fiber with any small swelling or shrinkage of the wood. One way to aproach this would be to take the two outside pieces of your 3 piece neck. Glue your contrasting wood on to each of your outside pieces. The contrasting wood can be any width as after gluing on you will trim in the table saw. ( no need for cauls as you will cut away any clamp dents, the extra wood you will cut away is your caul ) You would have the neck wood against the fence and slice away the trim wood until you like the width. Run the other outside piece through the same set up and you will have two thin strips attached to your outside pieces. Safe and easy way to get a thin strip and it's already glued. Glue your two outsides to the center piece and you have a neck blank that will make one like the one in the picture. Link |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I REALLY hate to argue with Howard..  .....so I won't! I will just express an opinion. There are an awful lot of necks out in the world that have fibre strips in them and they have not had issues. As far as stability and dimensional changes go, again, my thoughts are that this is no more of an issue than using different species wood with own dimensional differentials would be. Having said all of this, I am a wood worker and prefer wood over fibre as well but will be using some thin black fibre lines in a neck for a guitar I will be starting very soon.Sorry Howard....  Shane |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Don't be sorry, Shane. I'd like to be wrong about this, but experience has taught me to trust my gut. What manufacturer is using fiber in neck laminates? |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Hey Howard, I am not thinking of manufacturers (I don't know that many "waste time" laminating necks  ) but guys like John Watkins have made an awful lot of these necks for various makers. There are number of hand builders that also use fibre. I have been supplying this stuff in .020 x 6 x 36 in various colours, mostly for neck lams for at least two years and have never had a report of any issues (not a long sample but still I would expect one would hear something as it has been in use for quite a while now). I guess one could test this by gluing up some blocks with veneer and with fibre and then try to pull each apart or check shear strength. I guess one of the questions would be "which is stronger" and "is either not strong enough". I agree with going with your gut though. I don't typically go against mine. In this case I am going to try it but I have indeed thought about what I think you are thinking about. But we also need to remember that things like the fret board and the front and back headplate veneers also help add strength to this joint. Shane |
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| Author: | Link Van Cleave [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Shane, Can you send me some samples of the fiber and I will test it. I would be happy to pay shipping. Link |
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| Author: | phil [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
about the integrity of fiber, doesn't rick turner even use the stuff for binding on some of his guitars? pretty sure i remember him talking about using it as a substitute for an ebony look. phil |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I think Rick mentioned using CF (carbon fibre) for purfling strips, totally different material. That being said I understand Howard's word of caution, but the fibre veneer material I got from Shane or Bob is pretty tough stuff. |
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| Author: | Erik Hauri [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Shane, can you clarify - this fiber material is not carbon fiber, is it? You can certainly get carbon fiber woven cloth of various thicknesses, but most of its strength lies in the epoxy used to impregnate it. The CF material that Rick is using for brace topping is a different beast altogether, he is using unidirectional CF fiber (also layed up in epoxy, but MUCH stronger in both tension and compression along its length than any CF cloth). I suppose the unidirectional stuff could have some benefit in necks (think small I-beams as in laminated braces), but I don't think CF cloth would offer any advantages over wood or even a layer of epoxy. |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Almost all of the fiber I use is referred to as Vulcanized Fiber or Fish Paper or some combination thereof. I've used them in different laminations for about 3 years and have had no issues so far with them using both Polyurethane and Epoxy in different applications of them. Here is an overview of the process: "Vulcanized Fibre is made from a number of plies of paper, depending on the thickness required. The plies are passed through a bath of Zinc Chloride, an acid. The Zinc Chloride bath makes the surfaces of the individual fibers, which make up the paper, gummy and sticky. These gummy plies of paper are then pressed together. The gelatinous fibers create both a stronger bond within each ply of paper and a stronger bond between the plies of paper. They bind together to form Vulcanized Fibre, a chemically pure product of unmatched physical and electrical properties, and unique bond strength. Once the fibre plies are bonded together, the Zinc Chloride is gradually leached out of the fibre in a series of water baths. The fibre is then dried and cut into its final form: sheets, rolls, coils or strips. Rods and Tubes are made on a different machine, but the concepts are the same. The resulting fibre is almost completely pure cellulose, free from any artificial glues, resins or binders. Other than trace elements, it contains entirely natural components." It is very tough stuff. It is not as tough as hardwood, but like i said, I've had no issues with separation or problems caused by weak glue joints. -j. |
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| Author: | archtop [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
I'm happy to hear more about using wood. I guess you could say I have a very old-fashioned approach, and my heroes are guys like John D'Angelico, D'Aquisto and early Gibson guitars. I can't picture them using fiber. That doesn't mean it's bad. It can even be better for all I know! But, truth be told... I would rather stick with tradition in some areas. With all of this info I'm going to research both options. I still appreciate hearing everybody's experiences too! -John |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
John, It is my understanding that many a headplate veneer that is black, from the Gibson's and the like, is fibre these days and has been for some time. David Collins or some of the repair guys might know about all of this as well. Again not that I am necessarily advocating fibre over wood as I too like wood, but I don't think that structure is really the issue, personal choice would certainly be more so though. I can also get in stock, and Bob might have some already, Mahogany amd pearwood that is dyed. They maximum thickness is only .020 or so though as they can't can't get the dyes to fully penetrate too much deeper. But that is another option if you want coloured wood. Eric, the "fibre" we are talking about is "wood fibre", essentially thick paper. As J. pointed out there are different types, fish paper for instance is used in a lot of electrical applications and some claim to use it for guitar related stuff, John Watkins says that is what he uses. When I talked to the manufacturer they indicated that most don't use fish paper for guitar stuff as it is much more expensive and not required. Anyway, that conversation was a while ago. I just refer to this stuff as fibre. Shane |
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| Author: | Erik Hauri [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
That's what I thought - thanks Shane. True enough, Gibson's headstock overlays these days are exactly this kind of fiber. But Archtop, FWIW if you're sticking with tradition, back in the day they used to use holly dyed black. |
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| Author: | Eurospruce [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Hi John, I just did it with ebony on an archtop neck I am trying to do right now. Don´t know how to upload pics, if interested have a look here: http://picasaweb.google.de/eurospruce/B ... 07wQBpNKU# Regards, Martin |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck Laminating Questions |
Headplate overlays and binding are not high stress joints, so justifying the fishpaper based on this use is missing the point. I use the fiber purfling that LMI sells and I have seen it easily delaminate when work with it prior to gluing up. I don't trust it for neck laminations. It will probably be OK because this is such a large joint surface. But I am with Howard on this one. |
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