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Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
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Author:  Blain [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I love the look of the bound soundhole like Paul Woolson did a tutorial on.

I tried to do it on my last guitar using bloodwood, but after I snapped all of my spare binding sticks, I had to give up and just go with a regular rosette.

Now I'm trying to do it again on this guitar using Ebony and so far.....same thing. I've only broken 1 stick so far (and when I say broken, I mean I snapped it once, threw the end away. Moved to the next portion of the binding, snapped it, threw it away. Moved to the next portion, etc. , etc., etc. I have 3 sticks remaining and would love to get this down before I break through them all.

I sprayed with Super Soft and am using a backing of stainless steel. I can get the binding curved no problem, but it's not near enough to make a full circle for a sound hole. Once I go just a little bit past a slight arc, it snaps.

I probably sit there running the binding back and forth over the pipe several dozen times putting a little pressure on it as I go. It gives it a little of an arc and then once I've ran it back and forth for a while, I move in to try and give it a more serious bend but then it snaps. I spent the last hour giving it a try, and ran through one stick of binding.

Are there any tips that can be offered to make this job easier?

Am I just a complete idiot that isn't capable of bending binding any tighter than about a 12" radius?

How long does it usually take to bend the binding for a sound hole? Perhaps I'm rushing through it, but it's taking me a good 15 minutes of running the binding across the pipe before I finally snap it.

Maybe I'm not putting more water on the binding often enough? I spritz the binding and then heat on the pipe. I probably run it across the pipe for several minutes before sprizting again. Approximately how often do you spritz with additional water? The binding is thin and narrow so I could see that it would lose the water pretty fast.

What is the ideal temperature to get the pipe heated to while bending the binding?

Are there any jigs that can aid in this process?

I'm offering a Reward of one tub of lard to whoever can assist me in accomplishing my goal.

Many thanks in advance for your time in reading and responding.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
If you want black, one way to make it real easy is to use fiber! It should make that bend cold just fine.

Ebony and bloodwood can both be difficult. Bloodwood has interlocking grain so you get a lot of grain direction changes and runout.

Ebony is just plain brittle. Some pieces more than others.

What thickness are you using? Thining it may help. And instead of going over it back and forth, I have better luck making tight bends if I try to do it all at once. Seems like the more you start and stop, the more brittle it gets.

Also, I know that folks who steam bend tight curves in large pieces of wood for furniture will sometimes make a bend the opposite direction first. I think the theory is that is loosens up the fibers on what will become the tension side of the bend and it gives you a little more slack. Never tried it though and not sure if it works on thin wood that cools fast.
Author:  Darrin D Oilar [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I dont know if it would work or be considered poor taste, but would it be possible to cut kerfs in the back of it, then fill the kerf cuts in with glue and ebony dust?

Darrin
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Blain, after you sprayed it with SSII did you let it soak in and then dry for a day or so? How thick is the binding you are using?
Author:  Blain [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Thanks for all of the input everyone.

I sprayed with SSII and let sit maybe half a day. Sounds like I should wait a lot longer. That could be a lot of my problem. I'll spray some tonight on another stick and try again on Friday and see how that does. I'll also try the backwards bending. Can't hurt to try.

Does it hurt/help to spray with SSII and let sit more than just a few days? (If I spray tonight and don't use them for a month, would that be bad, good, or not make any difference?).

I'm also just using stock Binding with no thinning at all. It was my thought that I would first bend and smoothen up later. I didn't even think to think it some to aid in bending. I would like it as thick as possible, but I suppose some thinning would probably be best.

Can I get the fiber in a thickness real close to that of binding? I have some fiber purfling strips, but they're a lot thinner than I would like to use.

It sounds like I just picked the wrong woods to try this on as a starter. I may also see what else I have in my stock pile and either think about switching my binding scheme or just using it to boost my confidence a little (or hurt it some more).

I appreciate everyone's response. If anyone else has more to add it would be greatly appreciated.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Blain wrote:
Can I get the fiber in a thickness real close to that of binding? I have some fiber purfling strips, but they're a lot thinner than I would like to use.


Yes. I know Grizzly has it. Probably the usual suspects too.

If you are sold on solid wood, try thining to .060" or so. If you want thicker, Indian Rosewood bends quite well.
Author:  JRessler [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I had the same problem with ebony. I ended up using maple (which bent very easy) and dyeing it black. Looks just like ebony under the finish.

You need to allow the SS several days to work. As others have said, thin the binding to .060 - .065. Steaming it will also help.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
.060 thou fiber .. Allied has it I think. I use it on armrest and ribrests where the guitar is bound in ebony, and it works great. One of my studetns used it on a recent soundhole bind, doubled up to 120.
Author:  Blain [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Thanks everyone.

I have it sprayed with SSII as of last night, so I'll let it sit until tomorrow evening or Saturday afternoon.

I'll also sand down to .060 on the drum sander and go from there.

This at least sounds a little promising.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Hi Blain,
I feel that if you want to use solid wood and not fiber-go for it-don't give up!
Suppose you decide to use curly koa or simmilar on another guitar-you will be faced with the same problems anyway.
I am in the process of binding the F-holes on one of my archtops with higih figure curly koa(loves to break at the curls with the slightest provocation).
I thinned it to .60 as you have.
One "trick" is to bend to a bigger radius first in other words don't try to bend too tight a radius at once. Use a bigger pipe and then finish the bend on a tighter radius pipe.
For the f holes I am starting the bend on the edge of a heat gun, then I chuck a 3/8" diameter pipe in a machinist vise and heat with a propane torch.
Also make sure you keep wetting the wood so it creates steam.
Good luck,
Brad
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Blain,

Here's another alternative. On the guitar pictured, I used dyed maple veneer (tripled, total thickness .066"). It bends with no moisture or heat and I CA'd it place on all the soundholes. The smallest diameter was 1.5" and it bent with no problems. After sanding and finishing, I guarantee you will not able to tell it's not solid.
Author:  paul h [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I do bound soundholes on all of my guitars and have good luck with this technique. I put the binding strip in our vegetable steamer (while my wife is at work) for about ten minutes, pull it out and bend it around a large soup can, tape it in place and let it dry overnight. Thinner is easier and it helps to use a piece of binding several inches longer than you need because the ends won't end up in as tight an arc as the rest of the piece. I usually make a couple of extra strips because I occasionally break one, but not too often. SSII might help with this technique too.

Paul
Author:  Stefan [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
How far does the dye penetrate the veneer?

I wanted to do something similar with dyed veneer but my concern is that when I sand it I'll go through the dye to reveal the natural color of the wood. I want a purple dyed maple purfling next to the blood wood binding for the fingerboard edges.

STefan
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I am also doing a bound soundhole, using Macassar ebony, Rounded mine on a bending pipe. workt real easy ! I did just as you do on a normal side bend, light pressure and wet it once its dryed up, after a while its like butter to bend, "mine was though" perhaps I was lucky to get a good piece. ( at first I had a stronger pressure and then it snapped I remember, so light pressure and it will bend by itself.) the pipe I used was almost as large as the soundhole itself.

Lars.
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I guess I'm missing something here...I've never done a bound soundhole, but if I was to attempt it, I would just make a rosette that is the size of the soundhole(slightly smaller and slightly bigger) and inlay it as a regular rosette, then when you cut the soundhole out, you cut into the rosette leaving it bound. I did this by accident on a bouzouki I built, and it turned out looking like a large bound soundhole. So this is how I would do it...Start with the top not thicknessed to final dimension...
1. Find a piece of ebony that is 3mm thick(or the thickness of the final top) and 5" x 5", or 6" x 6"(A headplate may be big enough). Something that is bigger than a 4" diameter soundhole. Cut out the rosette using a circle cutter and the inside diameter would be maybe 3 7/8" and the outside diameter may be 4 1/8". So the rosette is now 1/4" wide.
2. Cut your channels for the rosette and leave just a hair of top material so you don't go all the way through. Basically, this channel would be close to the final thickness of your top. Then inlay the rosette with the rosette flush on the top side.
3. When you thickness your top from the inside of the guitar, it will remove the remaining top material so only the rosette shows around the inside of the soundhole.
4. Cut out your 4" soundhole, and it will cut into the ebony about 1/8" and leave 1/8" ebony exposed. Viola!
I don't see why you need to bend anything! I'm not sure it would work, as maybe when thicknessing the top the heat of the sandpaper may melt the glue of the rosette. But it would be pretty easy to test this on scrap before going ahead with it. Good luck!
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I use a 40W soldering iron as a bending pipe to do this with a wet paper towel doubled over the iron. Ebony or bloodwood should bend relatively easily providing you don't case harden the wood and/or wet it too much. I use a longer strip than needed so I have something to hold onto on both ends, bend progressively until it fits and then cut the binding to size. Do not try to bend the exact curve right away, but tighten the bend little by little, add a little moisture on the wood and paper towel with a sprayer and do not stay long on the same spot. Small fractures in bloodwood and ebony glue invisibly with CA.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Stefan wrote:
How far does the dye penetrate the veneer?

I wanted to do something similar with dyed veneer but my concern is that when I sand it I'll go through the dye to reveal the natural color of the wood. I want a purple dyed maple purfling next to the blood wood binding for the fingerboard edges.

STefan


It penetrates all the way through, it's only .022" thick. You can get it at Woodcraft.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I don't know if the pieces will or won't be long enough, but they sell pen blanks at Lee Valley that are pressure-dyed maple (dye all the way through) that could be cut up for this. A lot of knife supply places also have chunks of wood treated that way.

Shane at High Mountain carries a bunch of maple dyed veneers, and I've ordered a lot of black fiber from him on two occasions (1/32" and 1/8"). The fiber looks great so long as it's used on edge. If you want to use it on its face (ie: cut it out with a circle cutter and drop it in) then you'll need to redye it if you sand it as it tends to show witness lines when you cut through the layers.

It's not in any way a structural piece of wood, so if you need to steam it, cook it, or soak it in a lake for a week to make it bend, it isn't going to hurt the final product so long as it bends :)
Author:  Rod True [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I can't believe no one has asked how hot your pipe was eek

Ebony seems to need more heat and less water to bend well. Do you have a heating blanket? Try sandwiching the binding in between some metal and the heating blanket just to bring it all up to temperature, then take it out and bend on the pipe, making sure to back it up (as you mentioned you've tried).

I've only bound one soundhole, that was with EIR at 0.075" and it was pretty easy. I've bent ebony too (not for a sound hole mind you) and found it bent better with more heat. It's not easy but doable.

Shane at High Mountain also has Black fibre in 0.060 and 0.125 [:Y:]
Author:  Blain [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Rod True wrote:
I can't believe no one has asked how hot your pipe was eek

Ebony seems to need more heat and less water to bend well. Do you have a heating blanket? Try sandwiching the binding in between some metal and the heating blanket just to bring it all up to temperature, then take it out and bend on the pipe, making sure to back it up (as you mentioned you've tried).



I was thinking that I was maybe bending too hot. (And still could be a possibility). I had the Pipe bender cranked all the way up. When I held the thermometer up to it, it got up to 355 degrees F before I took the thermometer off.

I like the sandwich between two heat blankets first idea. That definitely couldn’t hurt to get it ready.
Author:  StevenWheeler [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
I bound a sound hole with .080 Ebony. I cut a circle of 3/4 " plywood a bit smaller than the sound hole. Then lay the Ebony on your heat blanket and hold it down with a scrap piece of wood. When the binding is hot enough, roll it up on the circle. I broke 2 pieces of binding into little tiny pieces until I used this method.

Tracy, I don't think it would be wise to make a rosette that was all the way through the soundboard. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before you had an oversized sound hole and a strange rattle in your guitar.

Steve
Author:  Blain [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
StevenWheeler wrote:
I bound a sound hole with .080 Ebony. I cut a circle of 3/4 " plywood a bit smaller than the sound hole. Then lay the Ebony on your heat blanket and hold it down with a scrap piece of wood. When the binding is hot enough, roll it up on the circle. I broke 2 pieces of binding into little tiny pieces until I used this method.


Great idea Steven. Thanks. I had cut a channel into plywood to help gauge my bend and hold it in place while it cooled (if I ever got it), but I like this idea too of using the plywood to bend around. Just one more thing I can try tomorrow.
Author:  RaymundH [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Blain,

If you want a bound soundhole without bending check out Matt Mustapick's Shop Reports.

http://mustapickguitars.com/56wachmann/1/index.htm

He is doing some really amazing work!

Ray
Author:  Pat Hawley [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
Blain,

I did a cutaway bound in ebony and getting the tight curves was tough until I thinned the ebony down to about 1 mm. At that thickness, I was able to get down to about a 1" radius on hot pipe.

As for black fiber, I've used that too, and I offer this warning: it looks good unless you have to sand it too much. Then it looks blotchy - like the stuff is made in in laminations and when you sand through the top layer, the layers underneath are more grey than black. Personally, I won't use it again (just because I got so annoyed at how my first try turned out).

Pat
Author:  LuthierSupplier [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bound Soundhole Problems. What do I need to do to get it?
StevenWheeler wrote:
Tracy, I don't think it would be wise to make a rosette that was all the way through the soundboard. I'm sure it wouldn't be long before you had an oversized sound hole and a strange rattle in your guitar.
Steve


Steve,
I see what you are saying, and have nothing to back up my reasoning, but I would think you would have the same problem with laminations coming out just as easily as a rosette coming out. Both use wood glue to inside of the sound hole. Am I missing something?
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