All the Mad Rose I've seen locally in Maryland has been of the reddish/purplish variety without much spiderwebbing. But I've also seen many really wide billets, like 10" and 12' long.
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| Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20384 |
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| Author: | terence [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Hi Folks! For your viewing pleasure, I have just published a profile on Madagascan Rosewood as part of my ongoing tonewood database. As always, improvements, corrections and additional information/ your own experiences are much appreciated- I'll update the profile citing you and linking back to you! This may be a little contentious and but no means complete. I can't link pics directly to here so do pop by to http://guitarbench.com/index.php/2009/0 ... -database/ for the full Visual presentation. As always, I present the text portion of the interview for your consideration- although I do highly recommend popping by to see the pics! Warmest regards, Terence http://www.guitarbench.com Dalbergia greveana| Tonewood Profile | ”Madagascan Rosewood” Tonewoods Database All pictures - Click to enlarge! Please email with any corrections/ additional info We aim to keep each profile as complete as possible & your help is appreciated! Madagascan Rosewood sold in the US and EU market consistents of a groups of true rosewoods found in Madagascar. The timbers are all rather similar but some have a distinct geographical distribution and ecolog. I hope to cover most of the common species. Quick Facts Scientific name: Dalbergia greveana Trade names: African Blackwood Janka: 13,350 N Uses: Back & sides, drop tops, veneer RIYL: Rosewoods Bling factor: Spiderwebbing not uncommon Availability: Limits CITES status: Not listed. No restrictions Natural History Dalbergia grevaena is widespread over western Madagascar where it is an endemic, deciduous tree 20m tall, 50cm in diameter occuring in dry forest and woodland up to 800 m in altitude. The wood is used locally for construction and firewood. The Mikea people from the south-western Madagascar hold the tree sacred and use a paste made from rubbing branches on stones with water as a medicine against various ailments. According to Prota, a not for profit foundation dedicated to gathering information on the flora of Tropical Africa, Dalbergia greveana used to represent the bulk of timber exports from western Madagascar. Status Compared to other true rosewood species [Dalbergia] from Madagascar, Dalbergia greveana appears to have poor natural regeneration. Prota states “Dalbergia greveana seems to be overexploited, and may soon disappear from the timber market because of stand depletion”. Physical properties The heartwood is purplish brown with darker stripes with a straight grain, fine, even texture. It has a Janka rating of around 13,350 N and a specific gravity of 1.08. It has a propensity for checking and splitting and needs care when air dried. However this timber is very stable once dry. Of note, studies of extracts from the bark has shown activity against gram-positive bacteria in vitro. As a tonewood… As a tonewood, Madgasacan Rosewood has been championed as a substitute to Brazilian Rosewood although it’s rarity and over-exploitation may push it towards a similar fate to Rio. Subjective tone… I would classify this wood as providing a dark and bell-like overtone content with a slow response. Availability Very limited in larger sizes. Similar woods/ Alternatives Dalbergia humbertii resembles Dalbergia greveana and is mainly found in the Ankarana Massif in northern Madagascar, and yields a similar quality rosewood. Dalbergia suaresensis Baill. also resembles Dalbergia greveana, and is restricted to the area around Antsiranana in northern Madagascar. The wood has traditionally benn used in cabinet making. Both of these are classified as endangered in the IUCN Red list. Tonewoods Database References: Wikipedia Prota database US deparment of agriculture- topical timbers of the world. Bolza, E. & Keating, W.G., 1972. African timbers: the properties, uses and characteristics of 700 species. Division of Building Research, CSIRO, Melbourne, Australia. 710 pp. Du Puy, D.J. et al. The Leguminosae of Madagascar. Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, Richmond, United Kingdom, 2002. Sanda, F. Conservation et valorisation des Dalbergia (Fabaceae) de Madagascar par micro propagation in-vitro et recherché d’activité anti-microbienne. Mémoire pour l’obtention du diplôme d’étude approfondie, Département de Biologie et Ecologie végétale, Faculté des Sciences, Université d’Antananarivo, Madagascar. 2004 Takahashi, A. Compilation of data on the mechanical properties of foreign woods (part 3) Africa. Shimane University, Matsue, Japan. 1978 Pictures copyright individual holders. Alberico guitar picture courtesy of luthierscollection. Any infringement of copyright is entirely unintentional. Any copyright issues should be address to: writers@guitarbench.com. We will attempt to resolve these issues quickly. We accept that we can make mistakes and omissions thus, any additions or corrects will be cheerfully accepted! |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Terence, most lutherie suppliers and luthiers I know call the Madagascar rosewood that they use or supply Dalbergia baronii, or the common name palisander if they wish to distinguish it from the other Madagascan rosewoods. I had not see it called greveana before. My quick research indicates that d. greveana is a lighter colored rosewood that is not the one we most often use for guitar making. |
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| Author: | Oubaas [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
terence wrote: Dalbergia greveana| Tonewood Profile | ”Madagascan Rosewood” Quick Facts Trade names: African Blackwood Having lived many, many years in Africa in areas where these things grow, I'd like to point out that none of the species that are usually referred to as "Madagascar Rosewood" have anything to do with "African Blackwood", other than the fact that they are all Dalbergias. Different woods. Rick |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Yes, the only species of 'Madagascan Rosewood' I have ever bought, all from European sources, has been D. boronii. I have sdeen a few sets of D. greveana, but this is quite unusual to find at luthier suppliers. The D. baronii is the type referred to as 'Rio Type' and displays the spider webbing. Colin Attachment: La lena back.JPG
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| Author: | terence [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Hi Howard and Colin, from what I have researched, baronii is the most commonly sold for guitars (more spiderwebbing, a bit more yellow/grey) and then grevaena (less spiderwebbing, more red/purple) but there are also several other species of dalbergia with overlapping ranges with very similar timber characteristics. I've seen grevaena sets before and they are quite different from the baronii- mostly from the smaller veneer dealers who sell cants on the side. My intention is to list up all the species I know of being sold as madagascan rosewood as well, madagascan rosewood, so you'll get a better idea of the diversity... Rick is entirely right- it's NOT African Blackwood, that's a typo that's been fixed. also, after a quick discussion with someone, the pic I must admit may not be so accurate- I'm in the process of sourcing better (well more acute) ones- I have a sneaky suspicion this pic may be Baronii, but I should have better pics in a day or so. warmest regards, Terence |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Here is a pic with Rio type samples (left), in center medium purple, and on the right even more purple. The center one is like a hybrid of the two. Save for the color tone, the grain is very similar to the brown type. The purple type can develop black lines too, but not that many. Under a bit of shellac they all match together pretty well. (samples have some wet areas) The heavier pieces (about 900Kg/m3) have that nice glassy ping similar to brazilian. Some Rio pieces can be very spongy though, and the small fragment on the left is as light as mahogany, only 620 Kg/m3 !!! |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
More pics, comparison between Rio and medium purple type (I will stress again that grains from closeby are very similar, with the same alternation of dark and very light fine lines) and a pic with the whole back of the extra-purple. |
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| Author: | Oubaas [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Here's a link you might find useful on the subject. A bit brief, but lists the usual suspects with photos: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/ ... gascar.htm Rick |
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| Author: | Tim McKnight [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
A little more information , I have been told by three US importers that the exportation of Madi is controilled by just one company based out of Spain. The light brown colored sets that LMI had several years ago are much lighter in weight and considerably less dense as Alexandru pointed out. Most of the "purplish" sets that are on the market now are mostly flatsawn, much heavier and harder with a lot less spider webbing. |
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| Author: | terence [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
Hey guys, I've heard a lot of interesting 3rd or 4th hand things about the supply of Madagascar rosewood- how the President used to control it's export from the company he was connected to, how the spain control the trade, how the french not the spanish control the trade, how now the trade is not regulated.... I'm not sure what exactly to think! Terence www.guitarbench.com |
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| Author: | Ken C [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
I had no idea there were so many varieties! I love the wide grain pattern similar to that in Colin's picture. Some of the sponsors of the forum have MR, but it doesn't have the same pattern. I have yet to find a set with the wider grain pattern. I saw a guitar made from MR at Elderly's a year ago and it was drop dead gorgeous. Since then I have searched in vain for a nice set for a build. Where does one find a set? Ken |
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| Author: | Erik Hauri [ Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
All the Mad Rose I've seen locally in Maryland has been of the reddish/purplish variety without much spiderwebbing. But I've also seen many really wide billets, like 10" and 12' long.
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| Author: | joel Thompson [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Madagascan Rosewood tonewood profile |
hey guys, i stock both types of mad rose both dalbergia baroni and graveana. the dalbergia baroni is the "rio" type and has the brick red color with the lovely ink lines on the outer part of the log. however dalbergia graveana allthough just as rare and lovely in its own right has been described as inferior by some makers. but as far as i can tell this just becouse of its color and looks. i can tell you that through experience of making guitars with both i personaly prefer the graveana for its workability and tone. in fact prosono in south africa sell graveana in preferance to to baroni. this is just a matter of personal taste at the end of the day. the dalbergia baroni cost on my price list is £140 (about $220 with current exchange rate) a set for medium figured set (i can not get any highly figured stuff at all) compare that to graveana which is between £40- £70 (about $100) a set on my invontary and the graveana is a great alternative. many dealers sell the two woods interchangably partly becouse both woods will often be sold together in a lumber shipment. basicaly the woods are very very simalar tonaly and in terms of density etc but the rio type tend to look nicer with the graveana being more "plain" looking. i have never seen a set of graveana with spider webing for example allthough it has nice honduras rosewood type fine background ink lines. the fact is that both woods are very rare these days with supply being very limited. most american dealers get theres through a spanish company allready sawn into sets as lumber is nearly impossable to obtain these days. i have heard that madagascar has put sever restrictions on export now but this may just be temporary. at the moment it seems very hard to come by. but the fact is that both baronii and graveana are known in both the lumber and guitar trade as madagascan rosewood. confusing i know it just reinforces the need for latin names in the trade. Joel. |
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