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Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20256		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Hello my friends.
I saw some clips on the "smallman" on youtube. and its so interesting to see new ideas, new inovating thought, I´ve also seen lots of you guys here at the olf´s websites, filled with new body contoures, and inovating builds.
My question is : how did you come up with the ideas, body shapes, bracing pattern etc etc, and why, how did they compare. thoughts, thoughts !!!

lets see your filosofical you !! :idea: :D

Lars. aka "Platon"
Author:  K.O. [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Ok Lars I will bite. I think any acoustic lap instrument should have tone faerie shaped sound releasing and directing devices in their audience facing sides(upper and lower bout) with smaller tone monitoring devices in the top.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
I think there are a few kinds of 'innovation' that pop up. There are aesthetic factors, like new body shapes etc, but for the most part they've got a lot more to do with looks than sound. I doubt there's anyone who can say which small jumbo-sized body shape is being played behind their back, conclusively, or which particular electric body shape.

The 'real' innovations tend to come from either incremental changes (changing something existing a little at a time until it's become something else) or 'stealing' from other industries. Guitar building, as a scientific or manufacturing field, is pretty much in the 'banging rocks together' stage compared to things like aerospace so there are a lot of places to borrow ideas that may or may not work when applied to guitars. Carbon fiber's one of those things that people started using in other industries and then it became 'mainstream' in guitars. We also took things like double tops and lattice bracing from composites design, and it appears that some people are having good success with them in certain spheres.

Then there are the "innovations". Being produced orders of magnitude faster than the real ones, these are the ones where a company does something differently because "it looks like it should improve 'tone' ". I won't name any examples in this category, but I'm sure you can think of quite a few unique features that some builders/brands have that are claimed to have amazing tonal effects but in practice don't seem to do anything at all and/or don't produce an instrument clearly superior to the 100-year-old designs.

The thing I find really amazing is that there are builders who produce both the second and third types. I'm not sure if they can tell the difference and don't care or if they really can't :)
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
I am working on a biggie. Not near ready to go yet but will be interesting if it works. that is all I can say as of yet :D
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
R & D is very time & cost consuming !
Many of us as Bob stated do it incrementally !(is that a word?)

I've heard many old style guitars-both nylon & steel that sounded fantastic and could fill a concert hall !!
I've heard many new lattice,doubletops ,and ported guitars that sound great also !
BUT I've heard poopy ones from both camps also !!

So as a maker you have to find your place & style to work on [:Y:] (with)

Mike
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
I just built this baby to test the Grime's assertion that modified lighter bracing as a result of moving the sound holes would result in improved sound from a small bodied guitar. If I compare the sound (loudness, richness and sustain) to my Taylor 414, I'd say this guitar beats the 414 on all counts. I couldn't be happier with the results and will probably now build a nylon string with the same configuration.
Attachment:
top.jpg
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Rich bro lets see some more pics this guitar looks killer!!!!! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Here they are Hesh. I don't have my photo presentation chops down though.
Attachment:
side.jpg

Attachment:
end.jpg

Attachment:
peghead.jpg
Author:  cphanna [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Hi, Lars.
I basically agree with Bob Garrish's assertion that a lot of innovation is visual or cosmetic--at least it starts out that way. However, I do believe in the old assertion that form follows function.
Often, this principle can lead to a new and better design for a jig or fixture. I also believe that new visual concepts for guitar designs can sometimes lead to modest breakthroughs in tone or projection, etc. Occasionally, new concepts can open up huge avenues of exploration. What if Orville Gibson had never built an archtop guitar? His idea opened an avenue of exploration that led to some great instruments from other builders--an evolutionary design process that is still evolving.
I think the same principle must be at work among flat top builders, too. We will see many concepts come and go. Many of them will fail outright, or will be unremarkable, or will work fairly well. Once in a great while, some genius will be inspired by something he or she sees, and the person will try something that is generally considered to be radical in concept, and will make a genuine breakthrough. With all due respect to the much more experienced builders who inhabit this forum, I will state this: If you guys don't realize that, you haven't been reading your history books.

In the meantime, of course, most of us (that includes me) with stay fairly closely within tried and true design parameters on our instruments, because most of us aren't true visionary geniuses. And even the true geniuses among us are often bound by the economic constraints of working for clients who demand a tried and proven design.

Gee, I got up on my soap box there for a minute. Sorry, everyone! I usually don't spout off like that.

Patrick
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
First, thank you all for some great posts !!
Richard, thats one killer guitar !!! absolutely beautiful !! [clap] [clap] would love to hear more detailes on this :geek: ?
Quote:
I just built this baby to test the Grime's assertion that modified lighter bracing ?

Michael, now I am wishing time could fly, soo want to hear what your making !!!!.
Bob, so true ! infact its kinda redicolous to see the sites that claims to have made a revolution thing, that infact dont do nothing fo the sound, wonder if there are anyone who buy the lies.

The reason I got in to this topic was, that the more I build (on my first and second)!! :D the more I am wondering stuff like what if this, what if that, how would changing the angle of the X with so and so much alter the overall sound etc etc. the first of the two I am building is from all our friend Michaels wonderful guitarplan. the second I will try to do some modifications to, I guess there are those who stick to whats been tested and prooven to work and those who just cant keep away from trying new ideas. No one is better, just 2 different type of persons I guess. I have gotten totally lost in this luthery stuff, and all my thoughts are involving around wood haha. Found out that in my mom and dads house the step that leads into the toilett is made of wenge !!! :D and its about 70 years old or so, perhaps I could bend it loose and change it to some teak os something and they would not find out :P .

Quote:
Once in a great while, some genius will be inspired by something he or she sees, and the person will try something that is generally considered to be radical in concept, and will make a genuine breakthrough

Could not agree more Patrick !!!.

wel,l keep posting, thanks for charing your thoughts.

Sincerely Lars.
Author:  Ricardo [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Lars, this is the bracing pattern. I was lucky enough to see a video of an interview with Steven Grimes where he showed his bracing pattern. I made slight modifications to fit with the 000 plan I had. Rich
Attachment:
brace.jpg
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Richard......Wow!, that is really nice. Would love to hear and play that guitar.
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Rich this is one great looking guitar - your work is excellent!!!! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
Author:  Darryl Young [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Richard,

I'm curious, how did you come up with the size of the soundholes?......try to keep the same area as the single sound hole or did you tune the size to the resonant frequency of the box or something else?
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Inovations, whats thought have you and why.
Thanks Richard. really nice !!! . I checkt out his website, he has some really nice guitars ! But I must say that, I think yours look prettier [:Y:] [:Y:] .

that upper X is wery interesting ! wonder if its possible to have that on a regular guitar ?. Thanks for posting the photos.

Lars.
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