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Rubbing on stain help
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Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Rubbing on stain help
I'm working on trying to put the finish on my first guitar. I've already posted a thread about using aniline dyes. Anyway I thought it was a great idea to add the dye to the shellac. I tested it on a flat piece of scrap and it looked great. I put down seal coat> porefiller> seal coat on my neck, then I started to put down the tinted coats of shellac but the problem is I was rubbing on the shellac not spraying like everyone suggested gaah I don't know if anyone has the skill to rub on tinted coats of shellac over a neck with a diamond volute but if they do I would consider it a super power like X-ray vision.

I can't spray, it'll have to be rubbed on. So now I'm thinking about just going old school and dying the wood directly... or would it be possible to put down a seal coat of shellac then put down the dye(dissolved in alcohol) on top of that seal coat? Would putting the dye on top of the shellac seal coat ruin the seal coat? I'm just trying to figure out what would go on more evenly. Are there any other techniques for dying/tinting when using a hand applied finish?

Btw, I'm not worried about the end grain getting stained darker but I don't want the wood to be blotchy or streaky.

Sorry for the long thread. Let me know if any of that didn't make sense. I'd really appreciate some help.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
I suggest flooding the raw wood with plain alcohol and then applying the aniline stain (disolved in alcohol of course) with a small rag or brush.
The alcohol wetted wood will prevent the stain from "grabbing" and you can concentrate on repeating application on the areas which take the color less readily (i.e. the shaft of the neck as opposed to the heel etc.). Also if you thin the stain a bit, you can better contol the density as each application incrementally darkens the wood.
Also be aware that as long as you were happy with the wetted look of the neck, it's ok despite a blotchy look as the stain dries. It will go back to the previous appearance once you get some finish applied.
Other than very restricted touch up applications in restorative efforts, adding color to shellac is very tricky......better to stain and add a clear finish (or albeit a light amber shellac) over.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
David, Thank you. That clears up a lot of things for me.

The tinted shellac would look great if it would go on evenly but I guess that will have to wait till I get spray equipment someday.

Guess I'm about to head off to the liquor store for some Everclear bliss
Author:  Flori F. [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Hi Jeremy,

I've been through the ringer on this. I'd recommend that you pore fill first and sand back to bare wood. Then, I recommend you do as David has suggested (or as I think he has suggested). Mix your dye with alcohol and rub it on directly.

Once it has dried completely and you're happy with your stain job, put on your seal coat of shellac. When you're thoroughly sealed, you can french polish away. Just remember, if you level sand, BE VERY CAREFUL. It's easy to sand through that seal coat and take off the stain. Then you're stuck trying to re-dye the bare spot. Ack! Not easy!


Flori
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Flori F. wrote:
Hi Jeremy,

I've been through the ringer on this. I'd recommend that you pore fill first and sand back to bare wood. Then, I recommend you do as David has suggested (or as I think he has suggested). Mix your dye with alcohol and rub it on directly.

Once it has dried completely and you're happy with your stain job, put on your seal coat of shellac. When you're thoroughly sealed, you can french polish away. Just remember, if you level sand, BE VERY CAREFUL. It's easy to sand through that seal coat and take off the stain. Then you're stuck trying to re-dye the bare spot. Ack! Not easy!


Flori


Yeh I've already pore filled. So after I sand to bare wood the pores will still be filled, I'll probably fill them again just to be safe. I don't know why people stain first myself. Maybe with the sanding sealer that people spray on when they finish with lacquer is tougher but I end up sanding through the seal coat of shellac everytime I porefill and sand off the excess filler with 220 or 320 grit. I level the shellac with steel wool though and have been somewhat successful at that.
Author:  Flori F. [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Jeremy Douglas wrote:

Yeh I've already pore filled. So after I sand to bare wood the pores will still be filled, I'll probably fill them again just to be safe. I don't know why people stain first myself. Maybe with the sanding sealer that people spray on when they finish with lacquer is tougher but I end up sanding through the seal coat of shellac everytime I porefill and sand off the excess filler with 220 or 320 grit. I level the shellac with steel wool though and have been somewhat successful at that.

Exactly. Wish someone had told me that the first time I tried it!
Author:  Joe Sabin [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Steel wool is a wonderful material, but it doesn't really level. Steel wool follows almost any pattern it runs into. It smooths the finish to the fineness of its grade. There's a really significant difference between leveling with sandpaper and steel wool. I've found steel wool will actually keep grain evident and pull the finish out of the grain rather than leveling. It follows the pattern of what's underneath it.

As I've gotten older I've learned to appreciate the subtle difference and have carefully learned the technique of using sandpaper to level a finish. Sandpaper will produce a much finer finish than can be achieved with steel wool. I've loved the effect of steel wool on a finish, but have now left it behind for the more refined finish achieved with sandpaper and leveling through the grades.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Joe thanks for the info about steel wool. I had thought about how the soft material conforms to whatever it's sanding.

Could you share more about how you level and sand between coats? Like what grit you use, wet or dry, etc.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Jeremy,

I know you didn't ask me, but I too am a fine finishing noob (got one nice finish under my belt, the rest were crap) and have some things that worked well for me on my last finish which came out quite well. The basic thought was to do less with each stroke to minimize screw ups.

Use a very small sanding block - I used a little rubber eraser about 1-3/4" long by about 3/4" wide (one of those staedtler mars plastic ones). The advantage for us noobs is that you can see what's going on right under the sanding block with every stroke. Using a bigger block is faster but it also makes bigger mistakes if you screw up. I imagine that as I get more comfortable I'll switch to bigger blocks.

Dry sand with something like 3M gold - dry sanding again allows you to see what you're doing right away without having to dry the surface. I have one of those norton dust rags and wipe the surface clean every dozen or so strokes to see how I'm doing. A shop vac with one of those brush type tips is good too. Clean your sandpaper often too - I use a brush.

Start with a high grit like 400 - if going is too slow you can always go to 320 or 220 but it's much slower to fix a mistake from 220.

Anyway, that worked well for me. I'll be doing a mid-finish level this weekend and will be doing the same except maybe trying a larger block for some of the large flat areas, at least at first before switching to the smaller ones.

You seasoned pros - what sized and material blocks are you using for say the top and back? What kind of block for the sides?

Edit - one more thing, you don't level sand between every coat. You need enough thickness there to make sure you don't sand through.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Thanks for the info Andy. So you said start with a high grit like 400 when leveling the finish, what grit do you go up to before putting on the next coat of finish?
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
For the USL that I was spraying, 320 or 400 was fine. After a few coats, the scratches melted away and were gone. I imagine shellac would be similar but probably the finish you're leveling would be thinner than a lacquer finish so you'd be more likely to sand through on accident.
Author:  Jeremy Douglas [ Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rubbing on stain help
Andy Birko wrote:
For the USL that I was spraying, 320 or 400 was fine. After a few coats, the scratches melted away and were gone. I imagine shellac would be similar but probably the finish you're leveling would be thinner than a lacquer finish so you'd be more likely to sand through on accident.


Thanks Andy, I'll probably start with 600 and see how I feel about. Maybe lightly run some steel wool over it after I level.
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