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First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=20078	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
I just bent some sides EIR. and at the weist I got small ripples or breaks, is this normal and easy to fix ? its just on the upper end of the weist. the weist was real curvy. it also got a little dark from the iron at the weist is that just to sand off ? Also, I have the sides in the mold now, but I need to get it more fit to the molds sides in the weist 2-3 mm or so more snug to the mold., so, is it ok to go again even though its already been done once ? It was FUN, FUN, FUN. but a scary as I was sooo afraid it would break. Now I am mostly afraid I wont get a "perfect" fit !! Lars

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
not one reply hmm.

Author:	Hesh [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Hi Lars my friend - It's not normal to have a bunch of ripples in the waist area after bending let alone the burn marks. It sounds like you are using a bending iron and not a Fox or Doolin style bender - is this correct? The ripples may or may not sand out and this is true of some burns too depending on how deep they are. It sounds to me like you would benefit from some more bending practice before bending any of your good wood. Some tips that helped me on a bender is to keep the wood moving back and forth and to use a metal slat behind the wood to help contain the heat and prevent cracking.

Author:	Arnt Rian [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Hei Lars, a picture would probably be helpful. The breaks don't sound good, but depending on how severe it is, a little darkening from the pipe usually sands or scrapes away easily.

Author:	justink [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
hi Lars, I too just bent my first side the other day (still not finished with the second one or making the 1st side perfect to my mold either.) BUT, I noticed a little "scorching" or blackening on my side too. I read somewhere that you can put a wet cloth between the iron and the wood to stop this. I tried it with just a wet paper towel folded over my pipe and it worked like a charm. If anything chars it is the paper towel first, and it releases a lot of steam into your wood because it can hold a bunch of moisture. One thing I found though - it can cool you pipe off really quickly to keep putting a wet paper towel on it. So, you kind of have to watch the temp to keep it up high enough. Again - these are the words of a "not-even-finished-first-time-side-bender"! but, it is working for me. Good luck my friend! and show us some pics when you are done

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Humm? IRW bends very well with little added moisture needed. The breakage you refer to is call faceting. In non figured woods or straight grain woods this is most often caused by forcing the bend prior to reaching plasticize temp or no back up on the outside of the bend. You see this more often on a fox style bender than hand bending. These are stress fractures and like any grain fractures can travel. Sometimes these are shallow enough to be sanded out. I am guessing they are on the outside of the bend radius (not to be confused with the outside of the rim). Did you use anything to back up the outside of the bend like a short hand held slat? Also as you bend you need to keep the side in motion. Sort of a gentle back and forth motion. The scorch marks are more than likely burnt resin and the wood is fine. Picture would help to determine if the side’s faceting is viable or not.

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
I sanded just to see if the dark was coming off, and it was so I think I am good there, the small breaks was easy to fix, just pressed in some glue and put it under presure for a while and, will sand it and I am sure it´ll be fine. When I drag my hand along the side I can feel Tiny bumps here and there, but they are very tiny "now". workt the bumps as they were larger, on the pipe, Here are some photos ! there are tiny tiny gaps here and there, where the bumps are, like .3 mm or so. Please do tell me if it looks ok, !! Lars.

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?

Author:	Hesh [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Lars Stahl wrote: eek I think that it looks fine Lars buddy. I wanted to ask you how thick your sides were when you bent them because this may be one of the reasons that caused the faceting? Also your sides don't meet at the tail block or overlap which is how I do it and then I cut them to size. This is no biggie, you can still glue the tail block to them but you will have to have a butt wedge that is at least as wide as the gap where the sides don't come together. You are doing good my friend!

Author:	Lillian F-W [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
I'll tell you it looks fine to me, but I've only bend one side set successfully. But from here it looks great.

Author:	justink [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
i feel lame echoeing the advice/question of a much greater builder (Hesh!) but from the middle picture (taken from above the side) I can sort of see what I think you are talking about with the "fractures." When I bent my rosette out of .115" IRW I got the same breakage - I think because it was too thick to bend easily. I would wonder the same as Hesh - how thick are your sides? When I started bending my sides, i got through the first upper bout on the first side and realized they were way too thick (~.100-.110:) and realized my method for measuring the thickness was WAY off. So, I re-thicknessed them down to .085" with a newly bought set of calipers and now have to figure out how to thickness down the bent part of one side so that I can finish the bend.... Good luck Lars! and if anyone has any ideas on thicknessing a partially bent side, let me know! I figure I'll go at it with a scrapper - very slowly and carefully.

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
I am pretty sure Hesh is like me on side thickness, depending on what woods will be from .075"-.090" IRW I thickness to .080-.085"

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Thank you guys, The thickness of the sides are .87 give or take, wagner, then hand sanded/planed to thickness. About not meeting at the end ! I know, cut them to much , I am moving to fast !!!! I really need to slow down my tempo, but its the most fun I´ve had for years, serious ! so you think I can leave them like this, as i take of the clamps, the gap is like 4-6 mm at places, but it easely touch the sides of the mold with a "little" pressure . Lars

Author:	Hesh [ Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Michael Dale Payne wrote: I am pretty sure Hesh is like me on side thickness, depending on what woods will be from .075"-.090" IRW I thickness to .080-.085" Yep just like you Michael my friend and I probably learned these thicknesses from you too! Lars bro I think that you are doing just fine and yes the sides not coming together at the tail block should not stop you. You might want to insert some waxed or parchment paper when gluing in the block so that excess glue does not glue the guitar rim to the mold. I think that you also could probably leave this gap at the butt wedge too and once the rim is completed with the kerfed linings installed clean up the gap so that it is uniform on both sides and glue in a made-to-order butt wedge. Once you do that be careful to not flat sand the wedge and instead blend it in with the curves of the butt of the guitar. So you are having fun yes?

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Quote: You might want to insert some waxed or parchment paper when gluing in the block so that excess glue does not glue the guitar rim to the mold. Thanks Hesh, Great advice !! would have forgot that, so Thanks. hey, what is a made-to-order butt wedge ?? I know butt wedge. but do you meen to have someone make me one ? "I want to mess this one up myself" Lars

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Lars bro made-to-order butt wedge means, at least this is how I meant it.... that you make it to fit the guitar. The gap that you have there will most likely not be uniform and symmetrical so once you clean that up and make it uniform and symmetrical you make the butt wedge to fit.

Author:	Sam Price [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Lars Stahl wrote: hey, what is a made-to-order butt wedge ?? Lars Sounds like something specifically painful....

Author:	Lillian F-W [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Sam Price wrote: Lars Stahl wrote: hey, what is a made-to-order butt wedge ?? Lars Sounds like something specifically painful.... Splinters could be painful and embarrassing to remove too.

Author:	Sam Price [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Lillian F-W wrote: Sam Price wrote: Lars Stahl wrote: hey, what is a made-to-order butt wedge ?? Lars Sounds like something specifically painful.... Splinters could be painful and embarrassing to remove too.

Author:	Lars Stahl [ Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: First sindes bent "with iron" was scary !! small breaks ?
Sound painful indeed haha.

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