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| Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19976 |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I'm going to be finishing my first guitar in the house because I don't have a shop. One of the materials I'm using is LMI's aniline dyes and it says to use denatured alcohol or methyl alcohol to dissolve it. I read the description of these and methyl alcohol sounds real nasty but denatured didn't sound too bad. Is denatured alcohol safe as long as I don't drink it? Can I and should I use 190 proof Everclear instead? Also the instructions are kind of confusing and I may email them about it. The instructions say to use a mixture of 75% alcohol and 25% acetone when using the dyes to tint laquer but does anyone happen to know if should use acetone if I'm staining the bare wood? |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I know that this wasn't your question, but be very careful with dye in just alcohol. Definitely test on scrap. I had quite a mess on my hands every time I tried to stain bare wood with a dye in alcohol. Problem is that the wood absorbs very un-evenly and it can be very difficult to control. I suspect that alcohol is even worse than water based dyes because it's thinner. I've seen some people do it successfully with water based dyes on maple but I've never been so lucky. What I do now is seal with shellac first and spray on color in either shellac or lacquer. Good luck, |
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| Author: | stevensmith [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I've also had bad experiences trying to dye wood directly, turns out uneven and splotchy. I put the dye in shellac and spray with a cheap jamb gun. Works good and it's easy to build up the color intensity you want. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
The toxins in DA are absorbed through your skin, respiratory system and affect your nervous system. Hopefully some of the finish experts will chime in but if DA will work I assume so will pure grain alcohol. But I could be wrong. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
TonyFrancis wrote: First of all, I would strongly reccomend doing your finish work outside on a fine day... your home is no place to be doing any kind of finish work. If you are mixing these dyes for use on bare wood, just the alcohol alone is fine. Alcohol and Lacquer are incompatible... perhaps the acetone bridges them together, but I am unsure of this. What kind of finish are you using over top? There are many ways to go over the dye, but tung oil is one of my favorites. Then Seedlac, then Nitro. Best, Tony The problem is there aren't going to be any of those fine days for a few months. I was planning on staining the wood, seal with shellac, pore fill, shellac, then finish with Tru Oil. I've sent them an email. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon. Andy and Steven, I guess I could tint the Zinsser Seal Coat shellac I'm going to wipe on. I just read where it says right on the can you can tint SealCoat with aniline dye- up to 1/2oz per quart. Should I put a clear layer down first or just go ahead and start with a tinted coat of shellac? Do you know if the mixture of shellac needs to setup? The aniline dye instructions say to let the mixture stand for 8 hours, I guess this would apply when adding it to shellac also?? Thanks! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Jeremy Douglas wrote: TonyFrancis wrote: First of all, I would strongly reccomend doing your finish work outside on a fine day... your home is no place to be doing any kind of finish work. If you are mixing these dyes for use on bare wood, just the alcohol alone is fine. Alcohol and Lacquer are incompatible... perhaps the acetone bridges them together, but I am unsure of this. What kind of finish are you using over top? There are many ways to go over the dye, but tung oil is one of my favorites. Then Seedlac, then Nitro. Best, Tony The problem is there aren't going to be any of those fine days for a few months. I was planning on staining the wood, seal with shellac, pore fill, shellac, then finish with Tru Oil. I've sent them an email. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon. Andy and Steven, I guess I could tint the Zinsser Seal Coat shellac I'm going to wipe on. I just read where it says right on the can you can tint SealCoat with aniline dye- up to 1/2oz per quart. Should I put a clear layer down first or just go ahead and start with a tinted coat of shellac? Do you know if the mixture of shellac needs to setup? The aniline dye instructions say to let the mixture stand for 8 hours, I guess this would apply when adding it to shellac also?? Thanks! Jeremy, have you considered Stewmac’s Colortone or Woodcrafts Transtint translucent dyes they are water or alcohol soluble. I use both regularly and like working with them. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Another thing to consider is that Zinsser's Seal Coat is a DA based shellac. It doesn't smell too bad, but it definitely contains chemicals besides ethanol. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
WaddyThomson wrote: Another thing to consider is that Zinsser's Seal Coat is a DA based shellac. It doesn't smell too bad, but it definitely contains chemicals besides ethanol. Here's the MSDS http://www.zinsser.com/pdf/MSDS/sealcoat.pdf I'm not sure how to read it but methyl isobutyl ketone has something to do with denatured alcohol. Quote: Jeremy, have you considered Stewmac’s Colortone or Woodcrafts Transtint translucent dyes they are water or alcohol soluble. I use both regularly and like working with them. Yes but I'll see if I can work with what I have first. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
DA is for Denatured Alcohol. I should have spelled it out. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
There are hundreds of different formulas for denaturing alcohol. Some of them are definitely poisonous, others are less so. Some denaturants include gasoline, ethyl alcohol, ipicac, and shellac. The denaturant is chosen on the basis of cost, and the final use of the alcohol. When it's used in processing tobacco products, for example, they use nicotine as a denaturant. The whole idea is to make the stuff undrinkable somehow. Pure grain alcohol, or the 190 proof stuff you can get in some liquor stores, is the least harmful, and works great. The poison, of course, is in the dose; drink enough of this stuff and you die. The big problem with hardware store DA is that you don't know what they used, and it could change from time to time. It's all going to depend on the cost of the chemicals. Even if you take precautions the different batches might work differently for a critical aplication like French polish. Even getting dyes into a finish might be effected. Some proprietary brands, such as Behlen's 'Bekhol' are, at least, consistent. Sometimes you can 'cross solvent' a dye into a finish it won't dissolve in by itself. For example, you can dissolve an alcohol soluble dye in alcohol, and then add a solvent such as acetone that dissolves in alcohol and oil. The acetone acts as a 'carrier' to get the dye into the lacquer thinner. It doesn't always work with every dye, but it's often worth a try. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Alan Carruth wrote: Pure grain alcohol, or the 190 proof stuff you can get in some liquor stores, is the least harmful, and works great. The poison, of course, is in the dose; drink enough of this stuff and you die. Thanks, I wasn't planning on drinking any of it but I might spread some of that wood paste pore filler on a sandwich later. LMI said to just use alcohol(Everclear is ok) and the dye if I'm staining bare wood. However I did mix a little batch of dyed shellac and I think it looks really good. It seems like it might help the stain go on more evenly and not soak into the wood as much. So I'm thinking a coat of dyed shellac first, then seal with one or two coats of clear shellac, then pore fill, then seal with shellac again, and finally finish with Tru Oil. Any comments on that? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
TonyFrancis wrote: First of all, I would strongly reccomend doing your finish work outside on a fine day... your home is no place to be doing any kind of finish work. If you are mixing these dyes for use on bare wood, just the alcohol alone is fine. Alcohol and Lacquer are incompatible... perhaps the acetone bridges them together, but I am unsure of this. What kind of finish are you using over top? There are many ways to go over the dye, but tung oil is one of my favorites. Then Seedlac, then Nitro. Best, Tony Alcohol and nitro lacquer have always been compatible for me, acetone or not. I add lacquer thinner to the alcohol based dye first, and then add that to the lacquer. But since alcohol is a solvent for nitro lacquer (a mild one), it ought to work to add the dye directly. I haven't tried that since adding lacquer thinner to the dye first always works. I'd recommend a seal coat of shellac, then spraying the dye in a lacquer mix. You won't get even color applying dye directly to spruce, especially alcohol based. I prefer using the newer acid-metal dyes, which are very concentrated, and come in a bridge solvent that is compatible with everything. Tung oil? IMO tung oil is one of the worst finishes you could use for a guitar top. Soft, very slow drying, darkens the wood. Are you talking about the same stuff? |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
OK, I thought you used tung for the whole topcoat. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Hi Howard, Many lacquer thinners, especially the cheap ones, have acetone as a major component. Like the denaturents of alcohol, lacquer thinners are usually compounded of toxic waste materials and solvents that can be bought cheaply. Xylene, toluene, acetone, and at one time benzene, are/were popular chemicals used in thinners. I tried thinning some nitro with denatured alcohol without success. I will have to try the thinner/alcohol combination you suggest. |
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| Author: | JRE Productions [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I mix LMI dyes right into my lacquer thinner without the use of alchol. The only thing you need to do is strain it thru a coffee filter before pouring into your lacquer. Ive done it many times and it works fine. If your going to stain the wood directly with alchol and dye, wet the wood first. Give the wood a wash coat of water, then wipe the stain (dye) on. It keeps the wood from absorbing the dye in a blotchy manor. Once the wood is good and saturated from this process, it won't blotch. If you let it dry overnight, you might need to wet it down again. JD |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Maybe you should just go for a natural finish on this guitar, and go for the dyed finish on a subsequesnt one you can finnish outside. |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
Jeremy Douglas wrote: TonyFrancis wrote: Andy and Steven, I guess I could tint the Zinsser Seal Coat shellac I'm going to wipe on. Thanks! I would do like Howard says and seal with clear first and then spray on in either shellac or lacquer. Wiping is possible but you've got to be very careful to get an even coat. You might try french polishing with the color coat if you don't have any spray equipment. Again, test it on a scrap piece to see which works better for you. If at all possible, use a piece of scrap from the wood you used in the piece. Runout can have a huge impact on the absorption of stain so be careful. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
wbergman wrote: Maybe you should just go for a natural finish on this guitar, and go for the dyed finish on a subsequesnt one you can finnish outside. Well if I stain the shellac there won't be any difference other than a tiny bit of dye in the whole process. Quote: I would do like Howard says and seal with clear first and then spray on in either shellac or lacquer. Wiping is possible but you've got to be very careful to get an even coat. You might try french polishing with the color coat if you don't have any spray equipment. Again, test it on a scrap piece to see which works better for you. If at all possible, use a piece of scrap from the wood you used in the piece. Runout can have a huge impact on the absorption of stain so be careful. I tested with the dyed shellac on scraps of mahogany. It looked really good to me. I actually kinda like the look of the heel and headstock being darker(I assume that's why you bring up runout). I think I'm going to go with the dyed shellac, I'll do some test to see how it looks with a clear seal coat on under the dyed shellac. I'm not dying the spruce btw. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I have used LMI alcohol dye as a toner before... the trick is you need to add a little bit of alcohol to help it dissolve. Some lacquer thinner is cheap and doesn't dissolve the dye completely leading to odd colors. A little alcohol can't hurt or you can always add acetone or MEK or Butyl Acetate. |
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| Author: | Jeremy Douglas [ Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I'm not using lacquer. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question about LMI's aninline dyes and alcohol |
I wouldn't do Tru-Oil in my home without some very good ventilation. There's plenty of solvent in that that I wouldn't want my family breathing. Not as bad as lacquer thinner, but still not what you want to be breathing. Shellac in pure grain alcohol is the only finish I can think of that I'd use in my living room with all the windows closed. |
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