Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Gluing Binding and Perfling

Well Michael, it is a little too late to use the teflon strip as the abalone is already glued in. I had debated going this route, but my teflon was a touch smaller than my abalone, so I would have need to sand each piece of abalone to get it in the slot. Seemed easier to go about it this way. I'll try and clean the perimeter of my abalone up the best I can with a file then try putting in the top perfling and maple at the same time.

The maple binding isn't that flexible. I noticed a couple of areas where some clamps may be needed or the binding may need tweaked just a touch for a better fit. My preference is clamps as I don't have a pipe and torch and could easily end up with worse fitting bindings when I am done.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Ken

Author:	Ken C [ Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Gluing Binding and Perfling
Fairly productive afternoon. I got my rims all leveled and the binding/perfling channels routed. This is my first guitar with wood binding. You can see from the picture below that I am running bwb-abalone-bwb for the perfling, maple binding with another bwb at the base of the binding (hard to see but it is there). I think I have a decent strategy for installing it, but I want to run my plan by you, and you can give me a heads up as to any pitfalls. I do plan on hitting the top with shellac to avoid staining the red spruce with the CA. 1) Install the lower bwb that sits below the binding using CA. I will run it around the rim and miter in the end graft. 2) Install the bwb perfling on the soundboard using CA. 3) Install the binding. Here I do have a question. Do I use CA or Titebond? 4) Install the bwb perfling next to the binding using CA. 5) Inlay the abalone, then flood the area with CA as was recommended by someone on this forum. I have some teflon strips I can use when gluing in the bwb perfling next to the binding, but will probably only be needed if I use Titebond on the bindings and need to clamp/tape. Concerns? Attachment: Binding.jpg Ken

Author:	Joe Sabin [ Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Use the teflon strip for the abalone perfling's space as you glue up the rest. It really makes a difference in ease of installation. I did abalone for the first time and got a perfect (ok to my eye) result using the teflon to keep its space open. I glued it all up and then after it was dry zipped the teflon out and the space was perfect, tight and ready for the abalone. Then I was able to fit the abalone in and glue it in place. I glued with epoxy, which required me to fit all the abalone, pull it out and then replace it with the epoxy in place. In retrospect I think I'd use CA to glue, but I felt I wanted a better glue mount than I felt I'd get with CA. I think I was wrong. It looks great, but it was twice the work. If you haven't done abalone before, watch the ends, they may look cleanly broken, but may have a wedge shaped end to them. So look at them carefully and clean up the ends for as tight a fit as you can get. Also snap that long piece if it's tight, it'll look better when done. In the end it all seals up pretty well with the glue and finish once you are done. Have fun with it, this is one thing I'm most proud of in my many years of craft work.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
First off I'd say your Ablam looks to wide to me. That is usually only 1/16" wide for purf. Any wider is really hard to break and will show more. I just finished my back bindings and purfs and this is how i did it. Bent the binding and side purf (b/w/b glued up together) in the bender first. Next set the side purfling and the binding in the channel and taped them in place with binding tape or in my case the green scotch tape. Then glued it in with CA at the bottom where the purf and binding meet and from the side. Mitered the purf at the end graft but didn't glue that area yet. Then once finish with the glue and dry I cleaned up and leveled the side binding flush. Then installed the B/W/B ( not glued together)top Purfling all the way around dry fitted and then glued with CA. When I do my top I'll do it the same but will place the ablam at the same time as the top purflings. I see no reason to use teflon strips personally. Why not inlay the Ablam instead of the teflon? What if the ablam is wider then your teflon? If you use titebond the wood purfs will swell some. If you inlay the ablam along with the purfs then you will know if the channel in the right fit. And if not you can hopefully open the channel some or flatten the purf strips some or thin the ablam some. I cut my own ablam strips so I can adjust the ablam strips to work. I would also bind the back first to get your system down before doing the top.

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
I work from the inside out: purfling/abalone/purfling/binding in that order. I don't use teflon and don't like ablam (Ken said abalone). But lots of people do it differently.

Author:	James W B [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Howard what are you using for glue? and do you glue everything in at the same time,or are you doing this in steps? Also does anyone use titebond when using abalone or ablam? It seems it would increase working time. James

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Author:	Howard Klepper [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
CA. Glued in stages indicated above by the "/". I don't know if this is the best way. It's probably slower than some. It works for me. Lots of other ways work for others.

Author:	Ken C [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Thanks everyone. I am using abalone. I have a whole bunch of curved and straight strips I will be using. Each piece is about an inch long. Howard, I may end up doing what you suggested. Given my teflon is a bit on the narrow side, I may just skip it and work from the inside out, then button up and miter the bwb that sits below the binding on the rims and lines the end graft. I can then finish the whole thing off with my maple binding. Sounds like a good plan to me. A couple of follow up questions. I have never had CA anywhere near my soft wood. Should I dilute my shellac any when treating the areas where CA will be used? I presume gap filling CA is the what most use to glue in abalone? Epoxy has worked great for me in the past as it squeezes out and fills gaps, but inlaying this much with epoxy would take much longer. I suppose when I am done, I can go back with a small putty knife and work epoxy into all the gaps and recesses. Howard, are you using CA on the binding itself? Ken

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
CA on everything. I'd suggest thin for tacking the abalone pieces in; you can flood with thicker stuff later. I haven't had a problem with CA staining spruce, but thin shellac brushed on the end grain may be a good idea. Take your time to match color and chatoyance from one strip to the next, and the more you break them to get around curves, the better it will look.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Like Howard says there are many ways again to skin the cat.The reason I like to do the binding first is it then gives me a closed channel to inlay the purf,Ab, purf at one time. Just like doing a Rosette ring. That's why I suggest working your system on the back first. Although more then likely there's no Ab. there it's not all that difficult to add it to the top. If you have done a rosette with a purf/ Ab./ purf ring then the top is the same just a bigger ring. You might want to notice buy turning your pices of Abalone around that there is an on and an off to them by the way they reflect light. So you might want to pay some attension to that for an effect too. Howard, how do you hold the purf in place while gluing it and do you run into any problem with the CA beading up any on the bottom of the channel and having to scrap it up and clean up the channel between gluings. Shellac the channel edge as some CA (most) will yellow stain the spruce. Why take the chance. I always shellac a good area around the edge just incase the CA happens to drip onto the top and it helps to keep the tape from pulling up fibers too. Why take the chance ?

Author:	Andy Birko [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Chris Paulick wrote: Ab Ah yes, Ab or Abelonium - a very special element

Author:	TonyKarol [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
I would tape it all in place dry, using the teflon, and fibre tape. Leave 1/8 inch gaps between the tape pieces. Once it looks all good and tight, lightly glue it using the thin CA. This will hold everything in place while you romove all the tape. then i flood the top area of the purf and binding with more CA. Then you can run a small amount along the side joint as well. I like to scrape the top purfling almost flush before pullng the teflon. Then dry fit all the shell and hit with more thin CA. I use the LV padding lacquer as a sealer before routing the ledges, and then again before installing the binding on the top. On the back/sides I just glue it, no sealing required. It will take on the same colour once I Zpoxy it anyway.

Author:	Ken C [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Made some decent progress over the weekend. I got the bwb perfling glued on the top followed by my abalone. I found thin CA just didn't give that immediate bond with the bwb perfling I was hoping I would get. The perfling absorbed the thin CA unless I shot it with accelerator. I got a little nervous using the accelerator as I don't know if it will cause problems later with my water based lacquer. So I ended up using more gap filling than thin CA. Once I got the hang of the abalone, it went in pretty easily--lots of breaks around the bends to minimze gaps at the perfling. I got the abalone down in just a few hours, which is less time than I thought it would take. I then debated for some time how best to handle the perfing that went next. My abalone went in well, but it doesn't have a 100% perfectly smooth perimeter. It is very close, but as the bwb wasn't binding well with the CA, I would need to hold the perfling in place with tape while it cured. I was concerned this may result in a few very minor gaps between my perfling and maple binding as I couldn't ensure a smooth perimeter if I was gluing the bwb up snug against the abalone. So I decided I would glue that piece of perfling to the bindings prior to installing the bindings. That way, if I have a gap, it will be on the abalone side of the perfling, which should be more invisible when done. Before doing anything with the binding, I decided to glue the bwb perfling that sits below the binding on the rim and will outline my end graft. I don't know how you guys do those nice miters, but I can't imagine trying to do them when the perfling has been preglued to the binding. I should have the perfling on the rim glued in within a day or two, which will leave gluing in the binding (the binding will have that last top perfling preglued to it). My question comes back to adhesive for the binding. As I am gluing wood to wood, I hope some gap filling CA or even thin CA will hold the bindings as I work around the perimeter. Howard, do you tape your bindings in place then hit with CA, or apply CA as you go and slowly work around the rim using no tape or clamps? Thanks, Ken

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Trust me when I say you do not want to try to install the top purfling individually. There are several ways to go about this but what i like to do on a shell purfed top is install the side purfling separate. Install everything else at the same time except replace the shell or ablam with teflon strips equal to the width of the shell. Once the binding and purfling has cured then remove the teflon and insert your shell. you want the binding and top purfling and teflon strips to install at the sane time to insure a tight pull-up against the tops purfling channel to avoid gaps. CA is my glue of choice here because Titebond will swell the purfling

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
I've read in various places that all the purflings and the binding should be installed at once. But I get my best results doing a layer at a time. Don't spray the accelerator. Dab it on with a little pointy stick. I use a file to smooth the outside edge of the shell before putting in the outer b/w/b (or whatever). Gluing first to the binding seems like a bad idea to me. I don't really know how you would do it, but the binding/purfling would then be too stiff to be pushed into places where it doesn't already fit perfectly. I do some combination of gluing as I go around and taping it down and then gluing. No single method. I'm not among the best at this, I think, so take my voice as only one of many.

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Author:	Ken C [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Well Michael, it is a little too late to use the teflon strip as the abalone is already glued in. I had debated going this route, but my teflon was a touch smaller than my abalone, so I would have need to sand each piece of abalone to get it in the slot. Seemed easier to go about it this way. I'll try and clean the perimeter of my abalone up the best I can with a file then try putting in the top perfling and maple at the same time. The maple binding isn't that flexible. I noticed a couple of areas where some clamps may be needed or the binding may need tweaked just a touch for a better fit. My preference is clamps as I don't have a pipe and torch and could easily end up with worse fitting bindings when I am done. Thanks for the thoughts. Ken

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
I think you 've made this far more harder then it needed to be. Tony's method or mine is a whole lot faster and easier then a line at a time. Everything would have been dry fitted and placed before gluing.

Author:	Dave Fifield [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Did you know that you can replace commercially available CA glue accelerator with a mixture of water plus one drop of washing-up liquid?! I got this tip from a local Woodcraft store owner many years ago. I have used it ever since, in a small spray-lid bottle. It works just as well as the commercial stuff. I'm told it works because that's all CA glue accelerator is.....CA glue is hygroscopic (seeks water). Cheers, Dave F.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
The one problem with accelerator is it can sometimes make or trap air bubbles and make it look white in any gaps. I think baking soda works also. Sprinkle it in the channel and blow it away and the residue left behind is enough. At least that's what I've been told.

Author:	Ken C [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
As with everything in this building process, everyone seems to have their own ideas! I don't know if what I did was harder or not. I think if my teflon had been a tad wider, your approach would have been the one I would have used. In fact, that is why I ordered several teflon strips when I ordered my abalone. I either would have had to chase down more teflon or sand every piece of abalone I inlaid (each piece was about 1" long). I used the teflon when I inlaid my rosette as that teflon was the perfect size. I think with the binding I'll set it all in place using binding tape. Once I am happy with all the joints, I'll run in the CA. I'll post pics when I'm done and we'll see if this approach worked or not! Chris Paulick wrote: I think you 've made this far more harder then it needed to be. Tony's method or mine is a whole lot faster and easier then a line at a time. Everything would have been dry fitted and placed before gluing.

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
You could have skipped the teflon and inlayed the Abalone. If you have to sand every piece then sand every piece. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. Oh well, everytime you do something you will figure out what you can do to improve upon it to meet your needs. It's always a learning process. So much to learn, so little time. Just enjoy the ride. Your binding in your Avatar looks great.

Author:	muthrs [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
I too prefer real Abalone, but I use filler strips and titebond and install all at once. It's the only place I use titebond on the guitar. A great thing about titebond is that if you do get a gap that you didn't catch, you can just heat it and squeeze it closed. This is how hot veneering is done. Works with hide glue also, but I wouldn't want to use hide for the binding operation. I then install the Abalone, taking care to match the ends. I'm not real happy with the teflon strips though, since it stretches and gets chewed up too easily. I just purchased 1/16" thick polypropylene from McMaster and sliced it up on the bandsaw. I haven't used it yet, but it looks like it is going to be great. I looked at its physical properties before choosing it. It's a lot stiffer and harder than the teflon and doesn't stretch very easily at all, but it is plenty flexible enough to negotiate any curves on a guitar.

Author:	Ken C [ Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Had some time to get my perflings and bindings glued in this week. I liked Howard's approach to gluing in the inner perfling followed by the abalone. This worked well for me as my teflon was a tad too narrow. However, after reading several of the posts here, most notably those by Chris and Michael, I decided to change my approach to gluing up the rest. I glued just enough of the rim perfling in to get my miters all squared up. I then assembled the rest of the perflings and bindings using binding tape. Once I was happy with everything, I worked my way around the rim, squirting in CA. Love the way it turned out. My gaps by the abalone may be a bit wider than what you guys get who use teflon fill strips. But this process was pretty easy. I filled the gaps between the perfling and abalone with black tinted epoxy, then filled all the gaps and pinholes in the abalone with gap filling CA. Thanks for all your input!! Ken Attachment: abalone perfling.jpg Attachment: end graft.jpg

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
Looks good Ken. You do a better job with the miters then I do from the looks of it. I sometimes color the sides of my shell with black marker ( sharpee) and the CA will take on the color when you view it at an angle if there is a small gap. I really flood the channel with CA also so that it comes to the top of shell and covers it. looks a little nasty when dried but levels out fine and clear. I really like to have the shell sit a tad low so that when the CA dries it covers the shell. That way you won't sand through the top layer of the shell. Especially with Ablam as this can be a problem if you sand through to the glue joint of the top layer. Sometimes you will get pin size air bubbles in the CA. You should pick them out and put thin CA over them again to fill them. I always have just used thin CA so far. If I have a large gap on a fret board or head I'll fill the gap with matching wood dust packed into the gap and mounded and CA it and level sand when dry. Just some other ways to skin the cat.

Author:	Hesh [ Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Gluing Binding and Perfling
That looks great Ken my friend and this is going to be a VERY cool looking guitar!