Chris...I just logged onto the forum to research this very question......and here you are.......doing all the work for me. We should do this more often.
Chris
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| Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19659 |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I'm getting ready to bend my maple bindings and I am thinking that I should glue up the side purfling B/W/B (.024" each) to the bottom edge of the binding and then bend it as one piece in my side bender. Is that the way you all do it? And if so do you use tite bond for the glue? And if not then would you all give me a tip on how you do your side purfling (wood not plastic)? Or lead me to a good tutorial. I'm use to plastic. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I make my bindings and side lines. I start with the binding material about 1/4" tall by 1" wide or so, and glue the veneers on the wide side, using regular Titebond and my go-bar deck. Use lots of bars. Then I cut off the binding strips, thickness them, and bend them in the form. So far I have not had much of a problem with the purflings delaminating. They do have a tendancy to buckle on the inside of the waist bend, but you can usually flatten them out by pressing them down on the flat top of the side bender. |
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| Author: | Allen McFarlen [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I make my side purfling lines by glueing up veneers to a piece of wood large enough to get the required number of binding strips. I've used Titebond original and Hide Glue. Not had a problem with either, but the Titebond was easier to use for this task. Clamping was accomplished with some perspex clamping cauls and lots of spring clamps. I've also once used pre-made purfling strips that I glued onto the binding with Titebond and dozens of clothes pegs. Much more of a PITA factor this way. When you go to bend them, Place pairs of bindings together with the purflings to the inside, and use some masking tape to hold them snugly together. This will help to hold the purlings in place should they want to delaminate due to the heat. Do not use too much tape, as it tends to stick very well when activated by the heat, and go very easy on the moisture for bending. |
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| Author: | Chris aka Sniggly [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Chris...I just logged onto the forum to research this very question......and here you are.......doing all the work for me. We should do this more often. Chris
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I make mines one at a time, clamp with paper black clips, I glue the veneer strips (about 0.12 wide) to the binding which is about 0.09, then I plane and scrape it true down to .08. I use fish glue and it bends without problems. I guess that cuttings trips from a larger block is much more efficient if you have a good bandsaw? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
A long long time ago I decided to always make and glue up my side purfling seperate. If you always miter the end graft purfling and side purfling joints as I do one very small cutting error can cause either the binding joint not meet or the miters to not meet. So I do the side purfling as an individual component and start the assembly at the end graft miter. That way the neck mortise is my rubber point where I cut the final length. Yes it is a tad more work. Yes carful measerment and fitting can avoid the issue but the individual component method allows you have a lot more tolerance. JMO |
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| Author: | Jimmy Caldwell [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I'm with Michael on this one. I always do the side purflings separate. It doesn't take me any longer, in fact it takes me less time, as I don't spend time gluing the side purflings to the binding and then possibly fixing the puckers that sometimes happen particularly with tight-waisted body shapes. I found I spent a lot of time at the miters on the end graft, positioning and repositioning until I was happy with the miter. It takes me much less time to get the miter joints right when I'm working with only the purfling. Just my $0.02. |
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| Author: | Flori F. [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I'd recommend Titebond III for gluing side purfling to binding. Michael, If I may ask...what method do you use to bend your purfling? Like you I find it much easier to get an accurate miter gluing separately, but find the purfling difficult to work with on its own. Got any tips? Flori |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
When you do it separately do you have to bend the purfling on a form or pipe or will they just bend? |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Yes I do have a tip. stack 4-8 of them togather tape the ends and the middle. bend them at 220 degrees. if I am bending only one or two I will tape them between a couple pieces of easy to bend wood cut like bindings just to help keep them on their sides and straight. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Chris Paulick wrote: When you do it separately do you have to bend the purfling on a form or pipe or will they just bend? Depending on the purfling most will conform for side purfling with no big problems but I always bend anyway. I am not sure why it would mater if you bend on a pipe or a bending machine as the result is still the same. You don't cut the miters till you get ready to put it on. So as long as there is an inch or so of extra lenght in the lower bout to work with for fitting why would it matter? |
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| Author: | Dave Anderson [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Michael Dale Payne wrote: A long long time ago I decided to always make and glue up my side purfling seperate. If you always miter the end graft purfling and side purfling joints as I do one very small cutting error can cause either the binding joint not meet or the miters to not meet. So I do the side purfling as an individual component and start the assembly at the end graft miter. That way the neck mortise is my rubber point where I cut the final length. Yes it is a tad more work. Yes carful measerment and fitting can avoid the issue but the individual component method allows you have a lot more tolerance. JMO On my last guitar I decided to do the same as Michael Dale here and I liked it much better than gluing the purfling on the binding first. It took me a little longer because it was the first time doing it this way. IMO this is a better way. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
It doesn't matter as I was just trying to ask if you used heat to bend them as to cold bending. I guess if I decide to do them separately then I could just place then between the bindings when bending just like if they were attached to the bindings. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Chris Paulick wrote: It doesn't matter as I was just trying to ask if you used heat to bend them as to cold bending. I guess if I decide to do them separately then I could just place then between the bindings when bending just like if they were attached to the bindings. Sure but the hotter you bend them the greater the chance of delamination (puckering) in the tight bends. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Dave Anderson wrote: Michael Dale Payne wrote: A long long time ago I decided to always make and glue up my side purfling seperate. If you always miter the end graft purfling and side purfling joints as I do one very small cutting error can cause either the binding joint not meet or the miters to not meet. So I do the side purfling as an individual component and start the assembly at the end graft miter. That way the neck mortise is my rubber point where I cut the final length. Yes it is a tad more work. Yes carful measerment and fitting can avoid the issue but the individual component method allows you have a lot more tolerance. JMO On my last guitar I decided to do the same as Michael Dale here and I liked it much better than gluing the purfling on the binding first. It took me a little longer because it was the first time doing it this way. IMO this is a better way. OMG I will be now forever know here as "Michael Dale". every time I read that I will hear my mothers voice 
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| Author: | Brad T [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I'm in the Michael club too, and for the same reasons. When doing the wood side purfs, I use the black/white .020.020, and bend the bindings and the purfs together, with the purfs in the middle, and bindings on the outside. I have bent the wood 20/20 purfs cold for dreads with no problems; don't know how it would go on a smaller guitar, though. That said, I now usually use the black and white fiber purfs, and they can definitely be bent cold, with your fingers. Personally I like them much better for this reason, and the white is very white. Doing them separately makes it so much easier to fiddle around with the miters at the butt wedge and get it right. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
For those of you who bend the purflings separately from the binding, do you also glue them onto the guitar separately, or glue the purfling at the same time as the binding? And what type of glue. I also do not like the fiddleyness of cutting the miters on preinstalled purfling and am looking for a better way. |
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| Author: | Dennis Leahy [ Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Hi Chris, I've only done a couple of sets, with purfling veneers pre-attached, and I used Titebond III, as it was recommended to me. It is supposed to be able to withstand higher temperatures and is water resistant/water proof. Worked great for me. Easiest way for me was a piece of flatsawn wood for bindings, about 3/16" thick x 3" wide x at least 32" long. I glued 2 layers of wood veneer on the face with Titebond III, and when dry cut individual binding strips out with a bandsaw (or tablesaw with a thin kerf blade.) Place sandwich veneer face up, to avoid chipout when cutting. Sand to about .080" thick. Dennis |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Barry Daniels wrote: For those of you who bend the purflings separately from the binding, do you also glue them onto the guitar separately, or glue the purfling at the same time as the binding? And what type of glue. I also do not like the fiddleyness of cutting the miters on preinstalled purfling and am looking for a better way. Hi Barry, for the last few instruments now I have used the very flexible "fineline" WBW fiber bindings from LMI as side linings, which can be bent sideways as you install them, and they won't buckle. I install these and tape them up at the same time as the bindings, but they are not attached to the bindings. I glue everything with CA (seal the binding ledge on tops with shellac first, of course) when everything is positioned right and all the miters look OK. Wood veneer strips that I cut myself from larger sheets do not bend sideways easily without buckling or breaking, so with these it works best to blue them to the binding strips first, or like Al described in post #2, glue the veneer to a stick and slice it up into binding strips afterwards. I do the slicing on the table saw with a thin kerf blade, and it's ready for bending. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I use TB original to glue the pruf lines to the binding and bend at regular temps, but slightly faster ... works fine for me. I like when possible to make the binding/purfling as a log and then cut into strips all at once. But for dimensioned binding, I use this jig to glue the purf lines on - again TB and if possible, have the purf lines wider than the binding, then plane/scrape flush. I have recently though replaced the metal wing nuts with larger plastic knob types. No tool required to tighten or loosen them. |
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| Author: | CWLiu [ Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Eugene Clark uses titebond original and no clamping. It works for me. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Barry Daniels wrote: For those of you who bend the purflings separately from the binding, do you also glue them onto the guitar separately, or glue the purfling at the same time as the binding? And what type of glue. I also do not like the fiddleyness of cutting the miters on preinstalled purfling and am looking for a better way. Yes I glue them in seperate (first) I use a bead of med CA on th bottom ledge if on dark wood and liquid hide if on light woods. I have 4 pieces of 30" long by .09" thick by 1/4" tall UHMW strips I use as faux binding during clamp (tape) up to keep the purfling pushed down on the ledge. You can of course glue up every thing at once but I like to install my purflings (all purfllings) first then the binding last. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
I make up side purflings (either simple lines or marquetry) integral with the binding strips. Titebond is fine, though lately I've been using fish glue as it allows more time for clamping what can be a large number of pieces. I use a hot pipe to bend and the suggestion of bending two strips together (purfling to purfling) works well to avoid buckling. The thicker bindings approaching .090" with thinner side purflings (.3mm) will be more prone to buckling at the waist. Keeping your bindings between .070"-.080" with .6mm purfling stock will minimize this somewhat. Attachment: Maple Binding.jpg
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
What David posted ! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") I do it that way because it works for me as well! Just fine what works for you ! Do some samples ;or experiments to find what works for you !! Mike 
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bending Bindings With Side Purflings? |
Lots of good stuff here. Thanks to you all. Nice jigs Todd and Tony. |
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