Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - neck relief first to ninth only

Michael Dale Payne wrote:

8 or 9 should show the max relief but it should be a declining relief going both directions form the 9th.

I have not found this to be tru at all. For the past 25 years I have been doing guitar repairs, I have always seen the maximum relief relative between the 5-7th frets depending on a 12 or 14 fret neck. Even on some of my 16 fret necks (like an ES335) the maximum relief never seems higher than about the 6-7th fret. I have always assumed that this was due to the neck bending the most at the center point between the nut and heel. I think I would be caught off guard if I ever saw the maximum relief up around the 8th or 9th frets. In theory, that would probably be a better place to see the relief to aid in the distance the string travels when plucked, but that has not been my expierence.

Not trying to be argumentive, but that information is not consistant to the guitars I have handled to date.

Joe

Author:	Peter Pii [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	neck relief first to ninth only
my neck relief is good from my 1 to 9 fret then my neck flattens till the 14th fret, after that I have fall away. the relief on my other guitars has aways been 1 to 14th fret. It's an allied double actng rod. I have leveled the frets but when relief is added back into the mix the flat spot creates buzzing problems. I'm not sure of the correct fix, some help would be greatly appreciated. Peter

Author:	Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
If you built your neck flat. and the thickness of your fretboard was consistent. When you string up the sting tension will bow the neck (relieve) between the thickest part of the heel to the nut. When this happens the middle of the bow (deepest part of the e relief) will be between the 8th and 9th fret. The peg head end or the neck will lift a bit the heel end of the neck is more stationary as it is tied to the end block or a fulcrum point of the bowing. So knowing this if your neck get flat strung up from 9-14 and the 1-9 is bowed I have to think the Fretboard was not properly leveled. Now there is more bend form 9 to 1 than ther is from 9 to 14 due to thickness of the neck but not by a lot. 8 or 9 should show the max relief but it should be a declining relief going both directions form the 9th.

Author:	meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
It sounds like your saddle is too low. Generally, putting relief in the neck removes buzz at the nut end of the fingerboard, raising the saddle cleans up the middle to body joint area. On an acoustic steel string you should only need a very slight amount of relief. Raising the saddle will give you more robust tone as well.

Author:	Howard Klepper [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
In theory a neck as you describe could play without buzzing. You can have relief in the form of the neck bowing up toward the headstock without having a dip (as defined relative to the string plane) in the middle. That's good relief. Relief should not be a bow with the frets rising toward the strings as you approach the body; but that sounds like what you have. If you are getting buzzing in the middle frets, you have some rise beyond them. Up to a point you can mill it out of the frets; beyond that point you need to pull the frets and plane the board.

Author:	Mark Groza [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
Peter Pii wrote: my neck relief is good from my 1 to 9 fret then my neck flattens till the 14th fret, after that I have fall away. the relief on my other guitars has aways been 1 to 14th fret. It's an allied double actng rod. I have leveled the frets but when relief is added back into the mix the flat spot creates buzzing problems. I'm not sure of the correct fix, some help would be greatly appreciated. Peter Your action might be too low for the strings you are useing.I have found that not all strings are the same.Some are stiffer and vibrate less than others.By changing brands,you might eliminate the bussing when having low action.

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Author:	JRE Productions [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
Michael Dale Payne wrote: 8 or 9 should show the max relief but it should be a declining relief going both directions form the 9th. I have not found this to be tru at all. For the past 25 years I have been doing guitar repairs, I have always seen the maximum relief relative between the 5-7th frets depending on a 12 or 14 fret neck. Even on some of my 16 fret necks (like an ES335) the maximum relief never seems higher than about the 6-7th fret. I have always assumed that this was due to the neck bending the most at the center point between the nut and heel. I think I would be caught off guard if I ever saw the maximum relief up around the 8th or 9th frets. In theory, that would probably be a better place to see the relief to aid in the distance the string travels when plucked, but that has not been my expierence. Not trying to be argumentive, but that information is not consistant to the guitars I have handled to date. Joe

Author:	JRE Productions [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
Ok Phew! Its always difficult to argue against someone elses own personal expierence and beliefs, but I think this is one time when we all should be expierencing simular results. I was concerned I have to use the emo-con, Joe

Author:	wbergman [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
Jose Ramirez III wrote that, for his calssical guitars, he gets the best action with the relief between the 5th and 7th frets. I have seen articles with very complex relief perported to give the best action, but I do not recall if those were classicals or steel string. I do not know if those articles were based upon observation of what works or on some kind of mathematical calculation.

Author:	Erik Hauri [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
I find that this can also depend to some extent on the player's playing style. Light fingerpickers can get away with low action and almost no neck relief. Heavy strummers need more of both.

Author:	Peter Pii [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
Is it controllable? if so how does a guy control where the most relief occurs? Peter

Author:	Barry Daniels [ Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
It might be useful to quantify exactly how much relief you have and what your action is set at. This would allow us to more easily identify the source of your buzzing. I also usually see the maximum relief lower on the fretboard, usually around frets 5 to 7. I think that the maximum relief shows up closer to the headstock than exactly at the middle of the neck because it tapers in width, and sometimes in thickness. This makes the headstock end of the neck more flexible than the heel end. Also, the type and configuration of the truss rod can affect the shape of the relief. I use a single action rod in a curved bottom slot that slopes upwards only on the headstock end of the neck. This pushes the relief to this end. However, the effect is probably too subtle to make much real difference.

Author:	Peter Pii [ Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: neck relief first to ninth only
I've pulled the frets and will level the board today. I'll report back later. Peter

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