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I've been working on a binding jig for what seems like two months now and I'm just plain tired of it. I think I should finally finish it tomorrow, but the first version didn't work and now I just hope this one does. I love building jigs as much as the next person but I am just ready to get back to working on the actual guitar. Anyone else ever get tired of a step that just drags on and on?

Maybe if I switched to Titanium bridge pins things would go better

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Dan

Dan, I feel your pain. I've just finished building a Woolson jig, a Fox Bender, molds, etc. Then promptly destroyed a side trying to do a cutaway in my Fox Bender. Jigs can help, but they don't replace experience. If only I could skip paying dues I'd save a lot of time and money. Alas, you pay your dues, learn and carry on.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

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Dan

An once the major jigs are done you will never have to do them again!! That is till you change your process around or think of a better way

The second, etc set of jigs go much faster, but yea, buy a 'saftey-planer', need a jig...etc.....

Always another tool or jig it seems....

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I remember last year at the ASIA symposium, one of the builders commented that sometimes he wondered if he was building guitars, or a guitar factory. By the time you actually have the guitar built, you've easily spent more time building jigs, patterns, templates, etc.

The good news tho', is that if you build a jig correctly, it can last quite a while, and saves time on subsequent builds.

Just remember to write on it what it's for. At a certain point in the brain overload process you will see a jig in a drawer and forget what you made it for or how it was supposed to work. Or conversely you will hit a glitch in a build and wish you had a jig to help only to remember later you actually did build one. (Usually when you stumble across it looking for something else)
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I feel your pain, there's a lot more jig making going on in my shop than guitar making. I'm just finishing a Wells/Karol router base so I can finish the top then I'm going to build a binding jig. I had no idea that acoustic guitars would take so much more effort than the other instruments I've built. I like Todd's perspective; I've decided to consider myself a jig maker and if a guitar magically appears somewhere down the road then I can just be pleasantly surprised.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I can relate to this also, I hand bent sides for the first 3 guitars and have been working on bending molds and a fox style bending press for it seems like forever, but now the weather is getting worse I will be in the shop more and things will happen a little faster. I can't hardly wait to bend some sides and binding in the new bender.

Fred Tellier

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

There are times when the simple, seemingly slow, methods are actually faster. For example, for cutting the bindings of one or two guitars, with hand-cutting methods you would have been done the cutting and binding in the amount of time that you've already invested in the jig.

For side bending, a hot pipe works really well, and you could have the sides bent in a fraction of the time that it takes to make a bender and forms.

Where complex jigs are worth the effort is when you plan on repeating the procedure many times, and you need repeatability with speed.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Perhaps. But there are requisite skills needed for these processes. Also, once the jig is made, it is available for immediate use over and over again, regardless if speed or repeatability is the reason.

Build your jigs... I feel your pain, but it is worth it.

Mike

We always seem to have some disagreement among us on if jigs and fixtures save time or preclude hand crafted skill. Each of us has to make tht decision for our self. Neither point of view is wrong; it is just a personal point of view.

One of the common argument s from the less jig side is that jigs eliminate or reduce the craft skill for a given process. I disagree with this because if you don’t have the skill to pull off the process then you are not likely to make an efficient jig to use on that process.

In my opinion the place for jigs and fixtures is really two fold, and has a lot to do with the difference between a Jig and a Fixture.

In the manufacturing world Jigs are a part location tool to aid proper positioning of parts during an assembly process. An example of a jig is brace locating jig. Something you use to insure proper location of components. A Jig does eliminate a bit of layout skill requirement during the locating of components but insures repeditiveness in accuracy of component placement. It took the same skill to design and fabricate the jig as it eliminated during use.

Fixtures are different than jigs. Fixtures are designed to properly place and manipulate components or assemblies during a process of series of process. A binding sled or an assembly molds are fixtures. The do not insure the process but insure the component or components are in proper position to most effectively perform the process. In my opinion a fixture removes none or very little skill from any process but aid in positioning during the process.

If you have a process where you need or want to improve repeatability and control variances, then jigs and fixtures are great ways to do this. You spend time and material up front to save time and material down the road.

A good point; a lot of these jigs are not necessary if you only want to build one or two guitars and/or you have lots of time available. For those who wish to do things without jigs - more power to you and enjoy the journey.

I think most of us that are making lots of jigs are already committed to making more than a few guitars. After a lifetime of building things I can pretty much do what I want to with basic hand tools given adequate time. So, in my case, I'm just making jigs that speed up the "nuts and bolts" of the guitar making process. I want to focus my limited time on design improvements, artistic efforts like inlay, and a bit of experimentation.

Edit: looks like I'm just one of several responses.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I just refer to it as tooling up. I worked in a small production machine shop for about 2 years and that's where I learned about tooling and dies and setting them up. I was pretty much the only one working the floor after learning how to set them up. The co. went and bought a CNC and I opperated it and that gave me exposure to that process too. Little did I know I'd use that stuff as I wasn't building guitars then. I just finished my binding machine too. But I've been down the road to binding with a dremel and the StewMac attachments and Stepping outside to spray a finish, been there, done it. So when I'm building these jigs and fixtures and tooling I'm thinking how much easier and better job I will be able to do. Not to mention the money I'll save in the long run by being able to make and bend the parts myself. Lately I've been getting into making my jigs as nice as I can and feel pretty good when I think it's not a bad end result. And like has been stated, once it's finished the second guitar will go even faster. It took me a week to finish my binding machine and cradle. At least I think it's finished.

If you can afford it, buy them. And a lot of people are over-jigged. Jig making is not guitar making. Sure it involves some of the same skills, but so do lots of things (that you may not feel like doing).

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

MichaelP, I see you are now Michael Payne. Nice to meet ya.

I agree with what you say.

Building the jigs and fixtures teaches one a lot about the process. These J&Fs are a consolidation of a lot of widom and experience. We all stand on the shoulders of giants (I. Newton) and it is worth our while to go through the process (unless one is just doing a solitary build)

I for one have enjoyed that part of it. And the results prove me out. Saying that J&Fs are not "purist" is like saying "who needs the wheel." If one truly feels that way, then cut the power cable coming into your house.

Mike

If you want to stand on your predecessors' shoulders, what better way than to buy the jigs? Who needs to reinvent the wheel?

Did someone say jigs and fixtures are not "purist?" I missed it. They have been around for thousands of years. My objections to "overjigging" are that it takes time away from guitar building that may or may not be worth it, and (more importantly) that some jigs tend to lock in in one's designs so that experimentation and creativity come to a stop. You know, the Pye thing.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I tend to buy the stuff that I will use all the time, like the binding tools, some templates for neck and body M&T joins whether they are straight, dovetail, or butt join. things of that nature. I use vacuum to glue the bracing, so built myself a layout and clamp thing for the gluing dish, things of that sort. Otherwise, if need something that will use once or twice, I try to figure out what it needs to do, build it and then trow it in a box, which I take out and dump every once in awhile. If see something I built and that I may use again, it goes into the new box. I just prefer to bend sides on the bend jig/tool whatever want to call it, because while that is doing, and cooling, I can do something else. Can and do I bend by hand and heater tool, sure, just not want to spend time doing it.

I worked in a shop for which there was a jig or fixture for every thing done. At the other shop, Bill has jigs, fixtures, tools and otherthings for what he did everyday to speed up the process. Many times he has just work it out with a quick fixture or whatever, for a particular one off thing like different back and top radius or other things out of the norm and not feasable or worth it to buy. Whatever he does, it is well thought out and planned as part of the build ahead of time. Big difference they have for jigs, fixtures and template (which may be same thing) is production speed. In Maine, 6-10 guitars a week. At Bill's 30-40 a year, plus the other things in shop like repair, fix tools (non jig, fixture) etc. One thing for the hobbiest, and another for the full time production shop, like I have said before, time is money. Some guys like Howard, Bill and others use jigs and fixtures as they need without going overboard because, well, they can and not being . Others like to build and use them, just because they can and like doing that, and works for them.

I am like Howard though, why not buy them? If want one just like the seen in the movies, easy to buy it. Money I guess an issue, as most of the the time one can build somethings cheaper than buying it. Or one just may end up spend a dollar to save a dime, making it. Some, as said just like doing that stuff, that is cool and respect folks who can and like doing that. I don't, I prefer to use my time doing other things, but different strokes, and keeps the jig folks who do it for a living happy.

I would buy them if I could afford it. I have more time then money and this isn't my business. Then again I can usually build something better then what I see sometimes. It's all a balancing act. Building a jig as I go also gives me some time to think about what I might want to do with what I'm building. Heck, I would like to have a CNC router some day too. If I get one I'll probably have to build it.

Oh come on! Buy verus build. Really? I should buy a jig instead of build it? Somehow by building a jig I am reinventing the wheel? I really do not get that at all. Buying is an option. Nothing wrong with that. But, is as the OP asked if it is causing pain & fatigue, then buy the silly thing. Money is not my problem. Perhaps time is. But I can't help myself. I love building the jig. It teaches me a LOT about the intent. Yes, buy the power tool, but then use those tools to build J&Fs. Then use those jigs to do something new & different, stand on those giant shoulders.

Mike

I'm with you Mike: there's no shame in buying jigs. I'm interested in building instruments, not jigs. Whenever I can afford it, I buy. Often though, no jig exists and we've got to build them or prices are just too ridiculous....if I got a grant though

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Not sure which Mike you are referring to... my point is that jig building (for me) is good therapy and teaches me a lot. I should have added that "money is not the problem unless my wife finds out". So it is also good for the (mine) marriage. Something about spending $450 on something I could build for a quarter of that. Yes, I did buy a bunch of tools, so now I am expected to use them! However, before that, I used a sort of "community shop" to build them. Since it was available, my wife expected me to take advantage of it... I did, and still will in the future (don't have a planer).

I guess if building jigs "fatigues" one, then maybe this is not a meaningful hobby for one? Thats really my point. Its all fun to me. Its the journey, not the destination.

Mike