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Joining Top & Back Plates
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19466		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sylvan [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Joining Top & Back Plates
There has been some discussion both here and elsewhere about how to join top and back plates together. Most solutions have involved simple or complex jigs to hold the wood in place while the glue dries. I have been using a different method over the past 50 guitars or so which I learned from Mario Proulx. Simply put, all you need is heavy duty masking tape and hide glue. No jigs, no fixtures and a perfect joint every time. In any event, the method has been described here and elsewhere but I don't think it has ever been shown in a pictorial fashion. I think it is important enough for all luthiers that I have taken the time to show the method in pictures along with detailed instructions. It can be found at my web site at http://www.wellsguitars.com/Articles/Joining/index.html. I would strongly suggest you try it. It really does work!
Author:  DYeager [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Sylvan, thanks - I sometimes joint and glue 20 - 30 plates at a time, and I think I'll try this next time - looks like a good way to become more comfortable with HG!
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Mario suggest using Scotch 233+ I think . It streaches and pulls backs. Esamates it at about 30# pull. For whaat it's worth. I haven't read Sylvans artical yet though.
Okay, just read it. Mario also suggest that when you pull the first 5 pieces of tape that you strech it and only press the ends of the tape down so that the center is free to move pulling so that the tape will pull the joint together. I saw where some lift one the outside edge of one half up and tape the halves together leaving the center loose so when they flatten the board ot it streches the tape. There is a discussion over at MIMF and another one at luthiers.org on it too. Mario also says that there is no need for the weights if you tape both sides so you don't have the glue up taking up bench space. I will say that it seems that you want to use a tape that will not just strech but all so pull back. That seemed like an important part to this. Scotch 2060+ was mentioned and also StewMac's binding tape. I have to say that I've only read mostly good things about this technic. It's definately on the YouTube list for the next plate jointing I do. :)
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Oh yeah, Thanks Sylvan. I hope you don't mind me adding the comments. And I hope I haven't offended you by doing so because that wasn't my intension at all. Just adding some footnotes and additional info. Also I re read your artical and the heavy duty tape you say to use I found out when clinking the Link was the binding tape.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Thanks for posting this Sylvan my friend.

I have been joining my plates very much the same way for a while now and I agree that this method works great. It also eliminates the need for any clamps and/or jigs.

Here is a toot that I did on the tape method - the only thing that I do differently these days is that I use HHG. But it does work great with Titebond as well:http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11048&KW=tops#forumTop%22
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Hey Hesh, I just found and read that last night but could't remember where I saw it.
Author:  John Mayes [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
I've done uke tops like this for 7 years or so. Works great.

The first 5 guitars I built 13 years ago or so I used this method too. Easy but effective.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
I have been using the tape method myself for a long time. I think the actual joint is the key. Getting the edges true is the key . Any joint that is forced will fail.
john hall
blues creek guitars.
Author:  Sylvan [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Chris - No offense taken. The weights are not technically necessary but, if you join plates "in the raw" sometimes they are slightly different thicknesses and the weight insures the the underneath side will be flush, making thickness sanding much easier. It is far easier and safer to show the weights and let the individual decide he doesn't need them and insure a good, flush joint.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
Good point and advice. I'd probably do it too since I'm not in need of bench space and better off save then sorry.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
It's probably to just speed up the process. Cut down on time. When working with HHG you don't want to be fumbling around with getting the tape. Some have it stuck to the side of the bench ready at hand. I thought that was a pretty good idea to put it there to have it ready.
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
The basic idea of the tape method is that by taping both sides, but not the middle as Mario suggested, while the plates are not flat not flat is that when you flatten the plates the tape, already installed, is shorter than what you would use to tape two flat plates. The tape stretches and pulls the plates firmly together.

Try it on two pieces of scrap and you will see the beauty of it right away.

Chris is right that when using HHG there is no time to be fumbling with tape.
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
For sure, the tape method is the fastest and easiest method there is. Like John said, it's the initial quality of the joint that matters. I've used this method for the last two and I'm not about to change.

Thank you for the pictorial, Sylvan, and might I add, I've dubbed you the 'King of the table saw jigs'! I've used your jigs to cut the tapper and crown fingerboards. Simple and pure genius! I'm going to build a double-fenced tenon cutting jig next.
Author:  Hugh [ Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
When I hold the 2 halves of the top or back up to the light I can't keep them perfectly together, so I now hold them up against a window with a light on the other side.
Author:  ClintB [ Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joining Top & Back Plates
I just tried this method for the first time last night, and I think I'll be using it from now on. (I still have to scrape and check the joint when I get home tonight, but it looked like it worked well. Previously I've only use the wedge method (which is pretty easy too).

My only trouble came b/c it was my first time using hide glue and I had the glue a little too thick on my first attempt so I had to scrape it all off, re-plane and reglue. Seemed to work like a dream the second time.

-Clint
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