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Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19454		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
With uke building I fret the fingerboard first except for two slots that I use to index position on the fingerboard. Any reason why I shouldn't do the same with my first guitar? I see that Cumpiano and O'Brian fret after the fingerboard is on. I use a fret caul on my drill press. Seems to me it would be awkward jocking the whole guitar on the drill press to fret after the fingerboard is glued on. idunno
Author:  gozierdt [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I've done it both ways, and I prefer to fret before I attach the fingerboard to the
neck. But, as usual, there are people who prefer it the other way. I haven't seen
any large downside, and as you state, it's much easier to press the frets before.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I believe there are some long discussions in the archives about the pros and cons of each. I think it's about choosing a style that you like and getting good at it. If you are used to pre-fretting, that will probably work better for you. With pre-fretting, I would guess that it's a bit harder to avoid the hump at the body on a guitar than a Uke. Otherwise, it should be the same process.
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Rich buddy there was a great article in GuitarMaker a couple of winters ago that Mario wrote where he explains and details how he frets finger boards off the neck.

Kent is right that there was also a very good discussion here in the past where Mario and David Collins participated but I am not finding it when I search.

Anyway I have done it both ways and have better luck fretting with the board on the neck but the neck not yet on the guitar. Sorry if I am confusing you by throwing a third possibility in to the mix.
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Kent you bring up a good point. On the ukes I do a classical neck. How do you make sure that the upper bout of the body is on the same plane as the neck set? I would like to have that done right so I don't have a bump when I put on the fingerboard. wow7-eyes
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
The upside to fretting first is that it's simply much easier to do. The downside is that it demands perfect and consistent gluing, assembly, alignment, etc., through the rest of the building process. Sounds easy enough, but I've seen very, very few small builders actually capable of pulling this off.

Fretting later obviously has the downsides of being slightly more difficult or less convenient (though once you get used to it, it's not that big a deal). The upside is that it allows a final leveling and truing of the board after pretty much all the potential for changes has passed. Gluing the board to the neck, fitting the heel and extension to perfectly match, even gluing and clamping the neck to the box can introduce little curves and humps that weren't there when the board was on it's own. There may be folks who can fret first and still have the board perfectly true when done, but they probably couldn't maintain that consistency on their first, second, or tenth guitars. It may sound simple, but it takes a lot of refinement of your jigs, procedure, and skill to pull off. Keeping the frets out until after final assembly allows all of these unintentional (and not so easily controlled) complications in the board to be finally trued up before fretting.

So while fretting first can make the act of installing the frets easier, I feel it is a premature leap of faith for most small builders, most often ending with what I find as undesirable results. I suggest leaving the frets off until the end until you've built enough to be confident that your board is not compromised during the process.
Author:  Senf [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Rich, I fret after the neck is on and after the guitar is finished. It is basically the same way I do re-frets, etc. Here are the steps I follow:

I put the guitar in my neck fixture jig and adjust the truss rod if necessary to get the finger board as straight as possible. Then I bring the neck supports up to the underside of the neck to support the neck as I level the fret board. I can also make slight adjustments to the neck angle approaching the bridge if required during this process. Note I said slight. Next I remove the guitar from the neck fixture jig and install the frets. I will note that I radius my fret wire slightly less than the finger board radius to facilitate installation. After the frets have been installed I put the guitar back in the neck fixture jig, get the finger board straight again (installing frets may cause the neck to bow slightly due to the thickness of the fret tang working against the width of the fret slots). Again, I bring the neck supports up to the underside of the neck to keep it stabilized while I level, crown and polish the frets. When finished I have an absolutely level and straight fret board. I do my finally tweaking for relief after the strings are brought to concert pitch by adjusting the truss rod. Of course the nut and saddle work has been finished before this final tweak. Hope this help. :)
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Good info Ron and David. Are you saying that you might shave the fingerboard for final adjustment? Seems that introduces complications such as uneven thickness (more apparent if bound) and maintaining the fingerboard radius. I understand the concept just not sure of these items.
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Shaving might be a bit strong of a word. "Final truing" is what I prefer to call it. :D

You should still try to keep everything as consistent as possible throughout the process. Keeping tolerances of .005" can be quite a challenge when gluing and clamping wood though. In the end, if you have a .005"-.010" hump at the body joint, you won't notice that amount of differences leveled out of the wood. Fret it first and have to level a .010" hump out of the frets though, and it can be very noticeable.

It's more a matter of this - the top of the frets have to be true when all is said and done. Will it be more noticeable to level end discrepancies out of the .040" height frets, or the .200" thickness board?
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Ok David, I'm convinced. Thanks for the insight - so much better be on the right path thanks to you sages than learn everything the hard way. [:Y:]
Author:  David Collins [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Of course now, you'll finish the instrument and by some twist of fate find your board perfect, and showing entirely true with one swipe of a leveling block. Then you'll be angry that you let me talk you in to waiting until then to put the frets in..... laughing6-hehe
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Rich,
If you use short pins, you can install all the frets before glueing on the fretboard.
Just position and drill the holes after fret slotting but before fretting.
That is how I do it.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
This is where I currently am in my journey to fretboard nirvana:

I attach my carbon bar reinforced bolt-on neck exactly as it will be in final assembly and snug up the truss rod. (Two way LMI or Allied) Then:
1 Level with the neck well supported so it's dead flat.
2 Fret with the Stewmac Jaws from 1-10 and hammer for the rest.
3 Support the headstock and put 6 lbs of weight on each shoulder of the body
4 Get the fretboard flat again under this tension with the truss rod. (I use the notched straightedge)
5 Level the frets (usually very little needs to be removed)
6 Final touch-up with the L or U angled aluminum bar technique after strung up.
7 Dial in desired relief with the truss rod.

If I don't level with the truss rod snug the reinforced neck may be difficult for me to get into adequate relief even with a two way rod.
If you fret before attaching the fretboard you'd better use epoxy to attach to minimize the risk of deformity from swelling with conventional wood glue.

Terry
Author:  Hesh [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
"fretboard nirvana"

I like that Terry my friend! :D
Author:  Mark Groza [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I always fret last also.That way the frets won't need to be lowered as unevenly.I agree that's it's better , not easier to fret last. :)
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
David Collins wrote:
Fretting later obviously has the downsides of being slightly more difficult or less convenient (though once you get used to it, it's not that big a deal).


Yes but the same can be said of pre-fretting. Once you get used ot it, it's no big deal.

David Collins wrote:
The upside is that it allows a final leveling and truing of the board after pretty much all the potential for changes has passed. Gluing the board to the neck, fitting the heel and extension to perfectly match, even gluing and clamping the neck to the box can introduce little curves and humps that weren't there when the board was on it's own. There may be folks who can fret first and still have the board perfectly true when done, but they probably couldn't maintain that consistency on their first, second, or tenth guitars. It may sound simple, but it takes a lot of refinement of your jigs, procedure, and skill to pull off. Keeping the frets out until after final assembly allows all of these unintentional (and not so easily controlled) complications in the board to be finally trued up before fretting.


All those potential complications are certainly true but there is no shortage of complications to run into while fretting after the fact. I wasn't going to repeat all this but since it seems to be hard to find in the archives....

Fretting after induces an unkown amount of backbow. Like pre-fretting, hammering frets is a learned skill. Frets not seated well and ends popping are more likely with hammered frets until you learn to do it right.

Then there's the added risk to the finished guitar. Let's see a show of hands of how many folks have damaged a nice new finish when fretting over the body. And there was a post here awhile back where someone split the top when hammering over the body. Not an every day event but it happened enough that Taylor went to the trouble to make those big ole fret bucks back in the day.

Both are skills with potential problems and both can be done quite well.

But there is one good argument that hasn't been mentioned for learning to fret after and that is so you will have the skills to do a re-fret when the time comes.
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
This is another advantage of a a detachable bolt on neck, I can just take it on and off to do the fret work, so, I fret after the fingerboard is glued on but before it bolted to the body. No hump at the body as the neck continues past the body join, with the fingerboard only glued to the neck.

Colin

Attachment:
Fretting.JPG
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
Colin, I presume one could do this with a dovetail neck once it has been fitted without the fingerboard but before its glued in.?
Author:  Erik Hauri [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I've done my last 3 necks fretting first, then attaching with epoxy and clamping in a good radiused caul. Worked like a charm once I got the hang of it.

My last one was a 24-fret bass neck for a guy who wanted really low action - after pressing the frets in and gluing up in the caul, the frets didn't need any leveling, just a little fallaway in the last 6-7 frets (typical for low-action peeps).
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I fret first. Martin guitars frets first . I like the fact that if I mess up I don't have to remove the fretboard. It isn't that big of a deal.
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
"Fretting after induces an unkown amount of backbow."

Good point Kent. When I first started leveling with the neck on I did it with the truss rod neutral thinking a two way rod would be able to compensate for the back bow induced by fretting. With carbon bar reinforcement I found that's not always the case. I had a couple of instruments that barely pulled into enough relief even with help from the rod. I now always level the fretboard before fretting with the truss rod snugged up.
Terry
Author:  Ricardo [ Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
John Hall do you have to do any adjustments after you glue on the fretted fingerboard? And how do you do that? :?:
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I am doing it very much like Colin is and this permits me to temporally attach the neck to the guitar, level the fret board and check the neck angle and drop off at the body, and then once everything is as it should be I add the frets. Most of the frets can be pressed in to place using either an arbor press, like Colin, or one of the several "Jaws" tools from Stew-mac. The last few frets that are difficult to reach can be hammered or pressed with the addition of a jig.

I recognize that Martin frets first but as David indicated this is production and the production engineering has already happened in which Martin has a strict methodology for how they do things. For folks like me who only get to pull out the fretting tools every time we build another stinkin guitar fretting is not something that I have the benefit of repetitive practice over and over all day long. Even though I have done it before the amount of time that passes between doing it again can be substantial......

This is why I think that the safer bet for those of us who are not doing this over and over or in large batches with test samples run through the procedure first and checked is to start with a level fret board already on the neck AND a pre-checked neck angle and drop off (if one is desired).

Even Mario who frets the board first also does some other things that are part of his system that if you leave these steps out you may not get the excellent results that Mario does. For example he weights the board after fretting suspending it on both ends and leaves it overnight if I remember correctly. He also uses HHG to not only to glue in the frets but to also lubricate the frets during pressing.

What would scare me to death is fretting a guitar AFTER it has been finished....... but this is how some builders fret and also ensures that you have an opportunity to have everything at least starting off as you want it.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
I always finish after i fret.Less chance of messing it up. :)
Author:  Ricardo [ Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Downsides to fretting fingerboard first?
An additional complication for me is that I will have two smaller upper bout soundholes so access to fret the fingerboard over the guitar might be more difficult.
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