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Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19336		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  archtop [ Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
In Irving Sloane's book, "Steel String Guitar Construction" he uses an interesting method for truing up the two pieces of the top before joining them... He took an aluminum level (that he said was quite accurate in regards to it's straightness) and covered it with 80 grit sandpaper. Then he took the two pieces for the top and one at a time rubbed them up and down against the sandpaper. He did this to both pieces and then checked if there were any gaps by holding the boards together up to the light. It sounds like such a simple, logical and best of all, cheap way of joining boards! I prefer using hand tools so I was thinking of using a no.7 jointer for this, but I'd rather not spend $400+ on a plane right now.

Has anyone used this method? LMI sells a long straight edge bar. I'm thinking of buying it for this purpose. What do you think?
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
there are plenty of people that use that method entirely or partly to clean up a not so perfect joint with a plane. i think the general consensus is that an edge tool will produce a superior joint, but an abraided joint will be sufficient. i use a super cheap grizzly jack plane and a homemade shooting board and achieve great results. if you do want to use a straight edge and some sandpaper you might find a countertop place that will give you a piece of granite large enough for free or very cheap. i recently went to a local place and got a 20" square piece of black granite with a bull nose edge on it for free. even though i was willing to pay, the guy just gave it to me. a piece of glass or the flat cast iron top of a table saw or jointer would work too. be creative. like i said, even a cheap plane will work well if set up correctly.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Several things to consider:
-you do not need a 7, a 5 is quite enough. You can even pull it with a 4 if your hands are steady and the tool setup is great.
But the 5 is easy. A Veritas lowangle jack is only 200$, you can buy a high angle blade for nasty grain face smoothing and you are all setup. Worths every penny.
- a plane is fast (takes 30 seconds or less to joint if the iron is sharp) and produces a better surface
-a plane takes less space than a shooting plate with its fence.
- you don't really need a fancy shooting board, your bench or a piece or MDF on which the plane slides are sufficient when the plane is good.

When I didn't have a long plane I tried to use a marble top with sandpaper and it just didnt work. Fuzzy surfaces and rounding, i could never get a really light-less perfect joint, while a plane is just hush-hush-hush up and down and it's done.

There is one downside though: you often lose the joint line when aligning plates to the sides or the neck to body, that can really be annoying. gaah
Author:  Jody [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Grizzly sells a block of granit honed level to 1 /1000th of an inch, I used it to true up my square aluminum tube (from MCS) for joining, i will probably try the plane later but the block is nice to have when you need those "perfectly" straight sanding blocks for joining and fret checking/leveling.I dont think granit counter tops, machine tables ,store bought levels , or glass is within those tolerances . Jody
Author:  Ben Pak [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I've had some limited success using a piece of adhesive backed sandpaper on the table of my bandsaw and holding the wood against the fence. However, because the table is shorter than the wood it's easy to "round over" the joint instead of making it flat. Lately I've had more success attatching the sandpaper to a piece of MDF (longer that the wood to be jointed) and holding the plates face to face with a couple spring clamps and sanding them on edge trying to keep them as perpendicular as possible. I've found the more passes with lighter pressure works the best.

There are many differant methods for jointing tops and backs. I tried several until I found one that worked for me. Good luck.

Ben
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Myself I didn't really recommend the plane method out of snobbery :), but because it is fast, reliable and accurate for me. And with that same plane i also thin and smooth plates.... And I believe the newbies need to have and know how to use a plane idunno
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
fmorelli wrote:
Who here is aware of a sanded top having a joint failure, having aesthetic issues or any other results based issues? I have never heard of a failure, nor have I seen or heard of anyone seeing a top where they could tell how it was joined.


I agree.

No argument, the planed edge produces a better gluing surface, but I have sanded MANY MANY joints and none have failed. I have used all kinds of glues, hide, LMI, epoxy etc. and all seem to work equally well.

I think the trick is to find a method and perfect it. Once you have it down, experiement with other methods.

A couple other random tips.

* A level is probably not quite flat enough. you will want something with tighter tollerances. I use my granite plate from Grizzly.

* I find that a #7 plane is too long. I prefer the #5.
Author:  Sam Price [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Yes, I have used the level and sandpaper method on many tops.

Basically make sure those glueing faces are completely free from wood dust before joining.
Author:  Brad T [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
The level and sandpaper is what I use, no failures yet. What I do is take a large enough sheet of mdf, and 2 straight pieces of wood to rest the top on. The level rides on the mdf and the top is laying flat, but elevated on the 2 flat pieces of wood.
Author:  peterm [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Tracy at LuthierSupply has a nice jointing jig. Maybe you should check it out. I know a few members use it and like it a lot!
Author:  Lars Stahl [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I recently got Tracys "easy Jointer" and it seem to work great ! did 3 tops in a few minutes ! ( havent glued them yet though :D but I candled them and it looks great. :shock:
Thanks Tracy for a great jig.

Lars.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I do it like Brad T, elevating the wood on top of a sheet of Mdf .
You can then shoot the edges with either a plane or the level with sandpaper and get nice square edges.
Author:  Allen McFarlen [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I elevate the top on a large granite slab that I picked up from the trash bin at a counter top place. Then place another piece of granite on the top. I find that this keeps the wood just that little bit flatter, and the sanded edge just a little bit more refined.
Author:  archtop [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Thanks guys! Your responses have given me a lot of confidence in the joining/jointing area! I'm super pleased to hear from guys on this board that have used the sandpaper method and have long functioning guitar builds to prove that it is a viable method. I took a look at the jointing jig at LuthierSupply. Looks very cool and is also very cheap. Though not as cheap as a flat surface and some sandpaper!

The thing is... I'm just a beginner and to tell you the truth it's been hell on my wallet just getting set up. And I'm not even fully set up yet!! :) So at this point I'm looking for creative, read: "cheap" methods of getting the job done. I looked on ebay for some Stanley no. 5's and there were slim pickins right now. And the ones I saw were above the $50 mark and still climbing. With a plane I also have to take into consideration the time it will take me to get the thing tuned up to the point that it can cut a nice joint. Once I'm fully set up I will probably splurge and get one of those gorgeous Lie Nielsen No. 7 Jointing Planes. I love hand tools and Lie Nielsen are quite remarkable. They come tuned out of the box. BTW, does anyone know how the antique Stanley's are "out of the box"? I'm talking about the ones that have never been used and have no surface rust or defects. I don't have experience with them, but I would assume they need to be tuned, have their soles flattened perfectly, etc... Anyone ever try an oldie "out of the box"?

The biggest plane I have is a No. 4. Is there any way in Hell I could joint with that? Anyone crazy enough to have tried it?
Author:  cphanna [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
The last two responses are telling you the truth about sanded joints. You have to "shoot" them, as if you were planing them. I use the top of my table saw as the shooting board, and stack my bookmatched halves together with their edges flush, and then clamp them down. I then glide my sanding stick (sometimes my level, and sometimes a purpose-built MDF sanding board) over the top of the table saw, with the sandpaper edge bearing on the two gluing surfaces. It works like a charm. I suspect those who talked about rounding over their gluing surfaces were talking about sanding a long arc into each surface. That could happen with poor planing technique, too. A lot of it is in the technique. You just have to practice. Now, with regard to a good surface that will accept glue, you can achieve a good surface with a plane or with sandpaper. Your choice. The difference with sandpaper is that any open pores will tend to load up with sanding dust, and you don't want that. So....prior to gluing, you will want to sweep (with an old paint brush), blow (with compressed air or your own breath), and dust off the gluing surfaces. You can achieve an excellent gluing surface with sandpaper if you will remember these things: 1. Shoot the surfaces. 2. Test the surfaces by holding the joint up to a strong light and seeing if any light penetrates the joint. 3. Clean the surfaces of all loose sanding dust--and be meticulous. 4. Don't starve you glue joint.
For the record, I have planed these joints, too. It's just that my personal sanding technique is better than my personal planing technique. Find out what works best for YOU. And good luck. Let us know how it goes.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I'd say it should work if it's tuned and sharp. I did my first with a block plan. Funny thing is I couldn't do it again on my current build. I ended up using a jointer but just had enough width left. Since then I have watched a DVD by David Charlesworth on shooting and tuning planes and I'll try shooting again. Stanley makes a #5 contractors plane for around $35 that is closer to the old planes quality that Lowes has that would work.
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Archtop, you could use a router and a straight edge. The problem I had with it though was a need for a better clamping system. Even though I used a curved clamping caul, the middle must have been able to move enough so that I always had enough of a gap in the middle to get frustrated enough to give up on it as a viable option for me. If I was to go that route again, I'd build a jig so that I could box it and use a screw clamp to keep the middle for moving on me. But I'm tired of building jigs so I'm learning how to use a plane. I figure I'll need that skill for more than just joining the tops and backs, so I think it's time will spent. I did go through a few different sharpening systems until I found something that I could make work for me though. Being able to sharpen a blade is as important as being able to use the plane. I have a Bailey #5 that I picked up off eBay. All in all it was in better than good shape and didn't run me more than $40. The seller had misspelled plane and Bailey, so I don't think too many others saw it. And I'm sure you realize that many sellers don't know the difference between a block plane and a jack plane. Check the pictures.
Author:  Brad T [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
1 point I would like to make on sanding top joints:

Do not use paper that has been used on darker woods! It is best to use new paper, or use a level and paper specifically for this one purpose. If you sand darker wood with it, the residual sawdust WILL leave deposits on the joint that can't be removed with naptha, and the join will be quite noticeable. There was a post about this quite some time ago....after I found out the hard way.
Author:  Ben Pak [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
archtop wrote:

does anyone know how the antique Stanley's are "out of the box"? I'm talking about the ones that have never been used and have no surface rust or defects. I don't have experience with them, but I would assume they need to be tuned, have their soles flattened perfectly, etc... Anyone ever try an oldie "out of the box"?


I use Veritas planes and have been very happy with them. They work well right out of the box. They work even better with some light honing (the soles are already flat), and they are half the cost of Lie Neilson.

Ben
Author:  KenH [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Brad T wrote:
1 point I would like to make on sanding top joints:

Do not use paper that has been used on darker woods! It is best to use new paper, or use a level and paper specifically for this one purpose. If you sand darker wood with it, the residual sawdust WILL leave deposits on the joint that can't be removed with naptha, and the join will be quite noticeable. There was a post about this quite some time ago....after I found out the hard way.


Brad is right on track ! When I went through Frank Finoccio's school, he showed us both methods of jointing the tops and backs, demonstrating each one. He had a block of granite that he used for his flat surface and that is the method I chose after watching the planed method. Nothing wrong with either one of them but I personally like the sandpaper method. You have to be sure you sand the same colored woods on the paper or it will leave lines when you glue up the plates (as Brad mentioned above).

Someone in the kitchen remodeling business gave me a piece of 1" thick and 4" wide piece of granite counter top that I use for my straight edge. It has worked really well and didnt cost me a thing. I have found that even though it takes a few more strokes the 120 grit paper works better for me.
Author:  archtop [ Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
Brad T wrote:
The level and sandpaper is what I use, no failures yet. What I do is take a large enough sheet of mdf, and 2 straight pieces of wood to rest the top on. The level rides on the mdf and the top is laying flat, but elevated on the 2 flat pieces of wood.


Brad. I'm pretty positive I get the picture, but is there any chance you could post a picture of this setup? Do you clamp the boards down to anything?

Another question I have guys.... Is it better to move the wood up and down the sandpaper, or vice versa? If it's vice versa I would assume clamping down the two pieces of the top could be helpful.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I did that for years before I started shooting my joints. There is nothing wrong with that method at all as long as the surface of the level used is machined flat. Most high end cast aluminum and cast steel levels are milled level Most cheapos aluminum stock levels are not. but you still may find one of those that is level enough. if you have a table saw with a machined level cast Iron table you can lay a level on it and cast a light behind the level to check the level. Or just build a fixture to hold the plates perpendicular to the table saw table and attach your sandpaper to the table and use it instead of a level.
Author:  DYeager [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
I made this fixture for jointing bookmatched veneer sets, after jointing my veneer on a jointer (!) for a couple of years - worked well enough, if tediously, because the jointer knives tended to knock chunks out of curly maple. The jointer worked better on the veneer, by the way, than an earlier version of the setup you're about to look at, which was designed to use a router - the router REALLY chunked up the figured wood. If you are determined to try a router, this would work with the top stiffener removed, but the stiffener is pretty necessary for veneer, which needs to be controlled.

I would prefer this with sandpaper on a straightedge to trying to hold a top or back half exactly upright on edge (I wobble) on a horizontal surface.

This setup would be the cat's patootie for you handplane people, I think.

Notice the self-adhesive sandpaper on both of the clamping surfaces, keeps the veneer from creeping around. The dark brown surface is 1/4" masonite, just laid on the fixture table loose, to raise the straightedge enough to bring fresh sandpaper into play.
Author:  DYeager [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
O-Kay, another learning experience - note to self: try to remember to load a series of photos in the opposite order to which you wish them to appear.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Irving Sloane's Jointing Method
After some failed experiments with a shooting board ( I was tearing out figured wood ), I used my laminate trimmer with an upshear bit, then used a good straightedge to run it down. Just hang the surface you are jointing over the edge of your bench an 1/8 inch or so, set the straightedge back so that you are shaving just a hair off, and be careful not to let the trimmer tip off vertical axis. It's like I've seen people do it with CNC's, but by hand. I do one piece at a time as well...
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