Interesting, Pat. I have not used black fiber bindings myself, but lots of people do, and I've seen guitars with them that look great.
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| Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19229 |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
I am having nothing but trouble trying to bend some Madagascar Ebony binding I just bought from LMI (broke a couple pieces already). I have bent Braz RW, EIR, Curly Maple, Curly Koa, Mahogany all with no problems but this stuff seems like it just wont bend. Doesn't seem like there is a lot of run-out but it just snaps with no warning. Do you folks soak the binding (plain binding, no laminates attached) or just mist it? If soak, then how long? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. |
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| Author: | Blanchard [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Black ebony can be one of the most un-bendable woods a guitarmaker is likely to encounter. I have no good advise other than use a different wood. Macassar ebony bends much easier and, in my opinion, looks better. Mark |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Bummer... So what is the blackest binding that still bends well? (isn't Maccassar Ebony marbled?) I'm making Selmer knock-offs and the cutaway is an extremely abrupt curve. I have been using rosewood binding but I want the guitars to better represent the early selmers that had black-ebony binding. Thanks, Peter |
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| Author: | Frei [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Where do you get macassar ebo binding? How about using supersoft?? |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Why not just use black plastic binding? looks the same from 3 feet away... Maybe black dyed maple or other ebony subsitude... |
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
what method are you using to bend the binding? ive personally only bent about half a dozen pieces of madagascar ebony, but i had little trouble in getting a good bend. the stuff is brittle however, and if you are bending by hand on a hot pipe i can see how you might have some frustration. i used the same method i use for bending sides. a fox style bending machine, a small amount of water, kraft paper and spring steel slats made pretty easy work of the stuff. one piece had a small crack at the waist, but other than that no problems. all good advice from the others guys, but let us know what you are doing and maybe someone can help you adjust your method to get better results. |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
I'm currently bending snakewood bindings and those are very hard to bend as well. Like you say, they'll break without warning if you just look at them funny! I'm using a pipe. I found that if the temperature is too high, this seems to dry out the binding, making it more brittle and prone to cracking. For the snakewood, I try to keep them very wet. As I'm bending I can see the water evaporate. As soon as I do, I remist with the spray bottle. This seemed to have helped a bit. Also, I forget who had posted this tip, but you can try keeping a wet rag over the pipe. It's a bit along the same principles as keeping the binding moist. You can keep spraying the rag as needed. How thick is your binding? Are the binding channels cut out already? If you haven't excavated the channels and you have a thickness sander, you can always try thinning out the binding a touch. I've also discovered that I'm my own worst enemy. So far, I've mostly used koa for binding. Bends like spagetti. With the snakewood, it takes me about 3 times longer than it would for koa. I've had to reduce the heat, keep it really moist and wait patiently until I feel the wood give way, but then, you have to bend it just a little, move on and wait until it cools down and go again. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
I would suggest using black fiber binding. Under a gloss finish, you'd never know the difference. |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
I have been using an electric bending iron - pretty hot setting. The binding is at full dimension (1/4” tall x .080” thick), yes I already cut the binding channels. I mist the binding with a sprayer when bending, but the iron side seems to dry out immediately while the top side stays wet. It's like the heat won't conduct through the piece of wood and thus wont get pliable. Should I soak the binding overnight or something? I could get the non-cutaway side of the guitar's bindings bent, but just barely. The problem is the cutaway side (Selmer guitar). Considering I broke a couple bindings around the waist of the non-cutaway side, it seems like a waste to even attempt the cutaway. Considering I could take a piece of rosewood binding and bend it around any radius I want, this stuff perplexes me. I guess I will take the previous advice and use Macassar Ebony instead. Someone mentioned black fiber binding, where is that available? I could swear I used ebony binding of some sort a while ago, maybe not quite as jet-black as Madagascar ebony (maybe a little grayer) but I remember that stuff bending well. Any ideas what that might have been? Thanks for all this help. It is greatly appreciated, Peter |
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| Author: | Burton LeGeyt [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
With black ebony you can always bend 2 .04 pieces and glue them in together. It won't show and bending at .04 is usually not a problem. If you make your own binding this is easy but having to buy twice as much from a supply house can be a pain. David Taylor posted on the 13th fret a system for doing tight bends with ebony and I believe it included using a vacuum to pull supersoft into the ebony because it wouldn't fully penetrate by itself. Maybe you could find that. If I remember correctly he was doing bends nearly as tight as the sweet selmer cut. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Allied Lutherie has black fiber binding in .060" thickness. Gurian could probably make you anything you want if you can buy in quantity. |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
A few comments (based on a little experience): A few guitars ago I tried for the first time to bind with ebony. I found that I had to thin it down to less than .06" before I could get tight (~1" radius) curves. Assuming you've already cut your ledges at around .08", I think you'll have a tough time unless you do two at .04" each as was suggested. I also tried bending the binding on a Fox bending machine using spring steel slats. The challenge I had with that was getting them off the machine after they were bent because the spring steel straightened and broke them. So you would have to figure out a way to clamp the lower slat to the machine while you removed the top slat and bindings, or use a non-spring steel slat for the lower slat. Even after I figured out how to bend the thinner binding, the cutaway I had done had a tight area that I just could not do. So I ended up using black fiber. I would not recommend this to anyone. It seems to be made up of lamination and when you sand it, if you go through the top lamination, underneath it is grayish rather than black. The end result are bindings that look blotchy. I think they could work if you got your ledge close to perfect so you don't have to sand much afterwords, but I won't take the chance again. I'll go with black plastic first. Finally, a glutton for punishment, I did the next guitar bound in black ebony. Even after I got the binding bent very close to shape, the lack of flexibility in the ebony meant that I really had to horse the binding to get it sitting nicely on the routed ledge. I'd do it again because they look good, but, for me anyways, black ebony bindings are tough! Pat |
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| Author: | Todd Rose [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Interesting, Pat. I have not used black fiber bindings myself, but lots of people do, and I've seen guitars with them that look great.
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Hi Folks, First time poster on this forum but been lurking awhile. I sure like the friendly, helpful attitudes I see here  I just bent some ebony binding from LMI for my first acoustic, a walnut/sitka OM. Not sure what kind but probably W. African since that costs less. I sprayed with SuperSoft 2, let dry for a day then bent with a fox type bender set for 310 F. I use 0.010" spring steel slats but I was just careful to hold the bottom slat down as best I could while I released the first one end, then the waist, then the other end. Imagine my surprise when they came out unbroken! First time I've used Supersoft but came well recommended (Todd Stock, I think) and first time I've bent bindings. Just lucky I guess but I won't go into how much side wood I've destroyed.  My stackup was spring steel slat, aluminum foil (edges not sealed), damp paper, wood, damp paper, aluminum foil, and spring steel slat. I started bending at about 250F, since I couldn't feel a thing, I just took about 10 minutes to get everything clamped down, let it cook for about 5 minutes, cooled it to 130F, cooked it again then let it cool overnight(just cause it was time to go to the house). Good luck with yours. Steve |
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| Author: | Chris Cordle [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
I didn't read all the posts so I don't know if anyone mentioned this trick. I spray my bindings and sides with a diluted mixture of H20 and fabric softener prior to bending ..... knock on wood, (no pun intended) I have had a great deal of success this way .... even bending Curly Anigre which some folks here have had a heck of a time with. Plus ... it adds a pleasant fragrance to the shop ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
i tape the bottom spring slat to the bending form with packaging tape. i do this right before im going to remove the wood from the bender and at that point things have cooled over night. ive done this on several sets of sides and bindings. so far no issues and it eliminates the problem of the slat springing up and breaking the side or binding. sorry, thats a bit off topic. |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Welcome to the forum Steve. I should have been more specific about bending bindings with the spring steel slats. I can remove "regular" sides OK but I haven't yet been able to remove a cutaway type binding from a Fox machine without it breaking when using a spring steel slat on the bottom. I know that lots of people use fiber bindings with success. Taylor guitars for example. As I said, I think the key is to install them close to perfectly so little or no sanding is required. Here is a picture of the guitar I did with fiber bindings: IMG]http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj247/Pat_Hawley/133_3347_r1.jpg[/IMG] I'm not sure how it will turn out but the idea is to show that the colour of them is not uniform. You may be able to see, for example, that they are lighter in the waist area of the guitar. Pat |
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| Author: | Pat Hawley [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
Sorry, the picture didn't work right on that last post. Try again: 
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Difficulty bending Madagascar Ebony binding (help) |
What about Ebonol? I wonder if anyone makes bindings out of it. From the picture it looks just like black plastic. |
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