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Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
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Author:  goofyboy06 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
I'm not talking about using electrical hand tools. I'm talking like how things were done before mechanized saws and such came into being? I hear all these people talking about "all hand made" instruments but they are using band saws and table saws to do their cutting. I was taught how to actually use my true hand tools before I was allowed to even think about getting near a power tool. I still make many pieces with my hand tools and want to translate my skills to guitar making. I'm just having a hard time finding texts on how some things were done before laminate cutters and bandsaws came around.

Sadly, I paid 150.00 for a so called guide to hand made music and it had nothing but power tools being used. gaah
The book has some good tips, but I really get a zen feeling from hand cutting my own mortises and dovetails. I guess I just want to know if I'm alone in my desire to build this way. I know it takes time, but so does everything truly built with hand tools.
Author:  ncovey [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Didn't catch your name in the post, so I'll just say Hi GB.
I think building with out the assistance of power tools is an art form itself, personally I use various power tools to build my guitars, but I have often thought about building one with out any.
When I was younger, I made knives in all different sizes and styles, from old car springs and ball bearings, and I never used any power tools, just a coal forge, anvil, hammers and files. I think if I were to build a guitar with all manual tooling, it would take a bit longer, but the end result would be very satisfying. I have resawed billets of spruce and maple by hand to get my plates, and and I still use planes and scrapers to thickness them most of the time. So it is easily possible to completely build them by hand, it just is a matter of time for me. That and what would I do with the extra power bill money?. Cool idea!
Author:  goofyboy06 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
My name is David, but almost everyone calls me Goof. It was a nickname my dad gave me because I was a silly kid who grew up to be a silly adult.
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
If you really like using handtools, make yourself a violin. Power is of little use generally in violinmaking (you'll definitely get the zen feeling!). It's all hand carving, f-holes with a knife hand carving the scroll etc etc. Even a lot of "modernized" current practice, like using a drillpress to drill to pre-stopped depth (inside the plates) to get the approx thickness is just an evolution of the same operation using a spoon gouge. It's very satisfying if you like patiently sitting at your bench working away.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Hey Goof welcome to the OLF! [:Y:] [clap] [clap] [clap]

I can't add any value to your topic here but I think that you asked a great question.

Great to have you here!
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Hi Goof, arch top mandolins also lend themselves to hand tools, especially the ones with scrolls and points all over. I the guitar world, I believe it is more common among classical guitar makers than steel string guitar makers to use only or primarily hand tools, especially over here in Europe. The modern steel sting guitar was basically developed in factories, so there are historical reasons for the heavy focus on machines in their manufacture. As far as instructions, Cumpiano and Natelson's book focus mostly on hand tools, or they offer a hand tool alternative to power tools for most operations, so that would be an obvious text to study. You should also get in touch with Colin S here on the OLF, he builds some of his instruments very old timey (don't you, Colin?). If you have specific questions regarding some of the building steps, there are many builders here who can offer hand tool tips. Happy building!
Author:  stan thomison [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
from your post you seem to have all the tools and knowledge in using them. Thin the top, back and sides with your planes and scrapers. Use you chisels for braces and channels, make some gramels for binding channels, varied saws for cutting the wood. I am sure a lot of other tools would be used. I use combo of hand and power myself, but say go for it. The noted books use mostly handtools from what I understand, but having never seen or read one of them I don't know for sure if that is so. If they use a power tool for a part, just use your hand tool instead. Your just building something different than what you build or have built before whatever that was, so with your woodworking skills should be really easy transition for you. Good luck and sure will do well.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Hi David.

Take a look at this site: http://mysite.verizon.net/nostberg/

The guy really works old school. Not only no power tools are used but his hand tools are all antiques.

Hope you like it.
Author:  ChrisC [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Hello, David!

I rarely put my $0.02 into these discussions because I rarely have anything to say that someone else hasn't already said, only better than I would.

If you can find a copy, Irving Sloane's book "Classic Guitar Construction" is really the book that you're looking for. I don't recall any power tools used at all in that book, or his "Steel String Guitar Construction". The second book has the added bonus of a section on Jimmy D'Aquisto's work.

I have had my copies since the mid '70's, and have no idea how difficult these are to locate. I'm guessing that they can be found, though.

The idea of a all-hand tool shop, where nothing was louder than the guitar you're building, has appealed to me for a long time. Doubt if I could live to that standard, though.

Good luck! And, let us know how this idea develops- its very interesting.

chris
Author:  goofyboy06 [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Now that's what I'm talking about. I just remembered the name of the woodworker I admired as a kid for his use of hand tools. Roy Underhill. Both he and my father inspired me to stick to manually powered tools. I took a few minutes and looked through the site and am feeling better about my decision to make instruments by hand. I will keep everyone posted on my projects, and please feel free to offer any constructive advice. I'm a competent wood worker, but instruments are completely new to me. I've got quite a learning curve in making things light enough to produce a good sound.

I would also like to thank you for the warm welcome. I look forward to getting to know you all. I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot from you all, and I'll be sure to give credit where it's due.

Thanks

David aka Goof

bliss
Author:  George L [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
First thing you'll need is shovel so you can plant a tree. :-)

I suspect many here have thought about going old school; I know I have. Sounds like fun and I'd like to try it myself one day.

Welcome to the forum,
George :-)
Author:  John How [ Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Building a guitar is not much different than building anything else out of wood. If you are a hand tool guy, then just build it with hand tools. It doesn't matter how you do it. If you know how to use your hand tools then you will have no problem. It will no doubt take you longer but a guitar made one way or another is still a guitar.
Author:  goofyboy06 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
It's funny you should bring that up. My neighbor used to teach at The Eastman School of Music here in my home town. Word got to him through my coffee group that I was going old school to make some instruments. He brought me over a copy that the school's library was going to throw out. Can you believe it? Of course I thanked him with a glass of 100 year of scotch. [:Y:]
I'm hoping to get at least 2 guitars made by spring. I had a thought to donate number 2 to the school. I'm keeping the first one. lol I'm getting so excited by this that I broke down and ordered some wood. I put in a call to a book dealer friend in Boston to find the other book for me. Thanks a million for the info. :-)


ChrisC wrote:
Hello, David!

I rarely put my $0.02 into these discussions because I rarely have anything to say that someone else hasn't already said, only better than I would.

If you can find a copy, Irving Sloane's book "Classic Guitar Construction" is really the book that you're looking for. I don't recall any power tools used at all in that book, or his "Steel String Guitar Construction". The second book has the added bonus of a section on Jimmy D'Aquisto's work.

I have had my copies since the mid '70's, and have no idea how difficult these are to locate. I'm guessing that they can be found, though.

The idea of a all-hand tool shop, where nothing was louder than the guitar you're building, has appealed to me for a long time. Doubt if I could live to that standard, though.

Good luck! And, let us know how this idea develops- its very interesting.

chris
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
John How wrote:
Building a guitar is not much different than building anything else out of wood. If you are a hand tool guy, then just build it with hand tools. It doesn't matter how you do it. If you know how to use your hand tools then you will have no problem. It will no doubt take you longer but a guitar made one way or another is still a guitar.


Wise words as usual from John, but then John is a really wise man. ;)

If you understand wood and hand tools then there is nothing especially difficult about building a guitar with hand tools, You know the starting point and what the end result should be, just follow the processes to get from one to the other.

I have built a number of guitars and all of my lutes using only hand tools. Many of the processes take no longer than when using power tools, and the end results should be equally good for either method, but for some there may be more personal satisfaction to the hand built work.

This is the most recent guitar I made using only hand tools, I did this as it was a Torres copy so I wanted to use Torres era technology. If I can do it then anyone can.

Colin

Attachment:
La lena front.jpg
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
My philosophy is not necessarily about the method - power or hand, but about the care and attention to detail. I daresay Torres and Martin would have used power tools had they been available as they can be used on those elements that have no influence on tone or quality to save time - the art in building is IMHO more about the quality of the selected wood and the understanding of its tonal qualities and then the detailing of tuning the braces and top etc, - the care and consideration given to these elements that sets the small 'handbuilder' apart from large scale manufacturers who simply dont spend the same amount of time on these details as the smaller builder?
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Yup, I build old school. I enjoy looking out for hand tools at car boot sales. Obviously the plates have already been resawn to 4mm or so when bought.

Don't think myself as a puritan or anything, I build with hand powered tools purely for practical (space is at a premium) and tactile reasons.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
I should of course have added that for most of my guitars I do use the whole panoply of power tools, bandsaws, routers drill press etc, but every now and then it's fun to go powerless (I've even used shagrin rather than sandpaper!)

Colin
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
ChrisC wrote:
If you can find a copy, Irving Sloane's book "Classic Guitar Construction" is really the book that you're looking for. I don't recall any power tools used at all in that book, or his "Steel String Guitar Construction". The second book has the added bonus of a section on Jimmy D'Aquisto's work.


I have them both. They were probably good books compared to what was available at the time they were published, but I don’t recommend following them to closely to be honest. Sloane’s side bending method, for example, is unessacarily complicated, there are other traditional methods that are a lot less effort and time consuming. The neck joint in the steel string book would be mighty tough to reset. A lot of steps are left out. And so on. They are fun for what they are though, and the purfling cutter, wooden plane and cam clamp plans included all work (I built them…). I also think the chapter on D’aquisto is a great glimpse into that maker’s world. I love the picture where he cuts the dovetail mortise in a finished body with a big old hand saw! Respect!
Author:  Marc [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Have a look at Neil Ostberg's web site, he uses some old school methods.
http://mysite.verizon.net/nostberg/
Author:  Dave White [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Actually, if you use the Wayne Henderson method you don't need many tools at all. Just a pocket knife and you proceed to whittle away everything that's not a guitar. That's the method I use - whoops my nose just got longer :oops:
Author:  Sam Price [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Dave White wrote:
Actually, if you use the Wayne Henderson method you don't need many tools at all. Just a pocket knife and you proceed to whittle away everything that's not a guitar.


Hmmm, think I'll pass on that one... ;)
Author:  George L [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
goofyboy06 wrote:
I'm getting so excited by this that I broke down and ordered some wood. I put in a call to a book dealer friend in Boston to find the other book for me.

Surely you meant to write that you had mailed an order for the wood (which I presume is a log) and book. Hopefully the mule train will get those items to you before the winter snows block the passes. If not, then that spring completion target may be difficult to meet.

Just goofin' with 'ya. :-) The "old school" slope can be slippery. Have fun with it and all's well that ends well.

George :-)
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
goofyboy06 wrote:
It's funny you should bring that up. My neighbor used to teach at The Eastman School of Music here in my home town. Word got to him through my coffee group that I was going old school to make some instruments. He brought me over a copy that the school's library was going to throw out. Can you believe it? Of course I thanked him with a glass of 100 year of scotch. [:Y:]
I'm hoping to get at least 2 guitars made by spring. I had a thought to donate number 2 to the school. I'm keeping the first one. lol I'm getting so excited by this that I broke down and ordered some wood. I put in a call to a book dealer friend in Boston to find the other book for me. Thanks a million for the info. :-)


Hey Goof welcome to the OLF.

I sure hope you know about our good friend Bob AKA "The Zootman" Cefalu. He's in your back yard, or about as close as anyone could be in Buffalo. He's a very knowledgeable woodworker and he's got probably the best selection and prices on tonewoods and other components specifically for luthiers. And he's a member here and one of our very fine sponsors.

I will warn you though, that the last fellow who visited Bob Zoot cave left with a very empty wallet laughing6-hehe
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
Dave White wrote:
Actually, if you use the Wayne Henderson method you don't need many tools at all. Just a pocket knife and you proceed to whittle away everything that's not a guitar. That's the method I use - whoops my nose just got longer :oops:


:D

On recent BBC documentary they showed Wayne and his whittling technique.... but he did seem to have lesser mortals using band saws and a circular cutter thing for cutting out sound holes! :shock:
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does anyone here build old school? Really old school.
First the Scotch!!!
Yes I'll have a WEE dram!!

I started out only using hand tools -there was no Stew Mac or Luthiers supply -just a small bit of knowledge & a HUGH need to make a guitar!
I planed & scraped all my tops ,sides & backs by hand-there where no available sanders for small shops then!
I planed my necks to thickness-I even made laminated necks and spend hours making sure everything fit perfect!
I loved doing that -but it was hard!
Now we all have so many devises to help us!

Michael Gurian was in the wood cutting & guitarmaking business in southern New Hampshire and I went to Charles Foxs school in Vt. in 1977.
So us students went down to Michaels to buy wood-he gave us a tour of the factory-I especially remember a stack or cedar tops that a Ramirez rep. picked out!(I got one)
Brazilian sets were selling for $40. -Indian $15!!!!!!!!
Real German Spruce $15.
But we all only had so much to spend-Man if i had a time mnachine!!!!!

Now to answer your question!
I absolutely love to work the woods by hand as mush as time will allow!
I make every bridge by hand-every rosette-all my bindings!

I thickness tops by sander then plane and scraper.
B & S with the sander!
I've spend 8 hours in the 70's scraping a Curly maple& Braz. set !!!!!!!!
I do use a jig now for cutting fret slots!
It's much more accurate !

Working the wood by hand to me is a great way to get in touch with them!
And a way for me to really appreciate guitarmaking!!
mike [:Y:]
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