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Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
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Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
I'm building a trio of guitars very closely based on the plans in Courtnall's book for the Torres SE117. Most of the details are supplied, but a few questions remain to be clarified.

The soundboard thickness stated in the text does not differentiate between the large body guitar and the smaller one. Is there much to be considered in adjusting the thickness for the smaller guitar? Any specific soundboard character to be working towards that is different from the larger guitar? FYI, I'm making two with WRC, and one with EWC (Eastern White Cedar)

As the scale is 603mm, not 650mm, is the guitar tuned at standard pitch, or higher like a Terz?

Anything else that I should be aware of?

I'm sure that other questions will arise, but I'm just finishing the third rosette at the moment.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Just to play the "Devils Advocate", I don't believe Torres built any Cedar topped guitars, did he?

Do you have the Romanillos, Torres book? It has a good bit of top thickness info. on various guitars, but I doubt that his spruce/pine thicknesses would correlate to Cedar. Torres was notorious for going thin at the edges. Some guitars at 1.4mm. I don't remember what's in there, but I have the book, if you don't, and would be glad to see what it says about any of the smaller bodied guitars.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Yeah, I have the book. I have devoured it. No details for that particular those particular questions.

None of the guitars in the catalog are identified as being built with cedar tops. I've built with cedar and am familiar with some of the adaptations required to shift from spruce. Also, I've got lots of cedar for tops.

I never thought that I'd be building one of these little guitars, but it just seems to grow on you.
Author:  Colin S [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
David La Plante recently both handled the original and built a copy of SE151a which to all intents is the same as FE117, they are within 1mm the same plantilla and both have three piece spruce tops and cypress B&S, 5 fans and closing bars, he may come along and give you some tips. But I too am troubled by the cedar top. These guitars were built the way they are to take advantage of the P.abies tops (though some probably had P.orientalis tops but that's a different subject). To stray too far from Torres' original concept is to build just a small bodied nylon string guitar rather than an SE117. As to the top thickness, well the usual answer is that it depends on the piece of wood you're using, only you can tell.

I'm currently working on another couple of Torres 'copies', another FE19, like my La lena, for one of the Professors of guitar at the RCM and also an SE114 for me to play the later Tarrega pieces, but I am sticking as close as possible to the originals. I also plan to make a copy of SE151a soon. Second guessing Torres is not a sensible approach as far as I'm concerned, he was rather better at building guitars than me.

Are you going to use machine heads or pegs?

Colin
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Thanks Colin,

I understand and appreciate your concerns and comments.

I am not making a faithful copy and have no illusions that I will be doing so. My daughters, the recipients of two of the trio, at 10 and 13 years of age, would not appreciate the subtleties of an exact copy! The older one sees this primarily as an opportunity in design and decoration.

I will be quite happy with these being "just a small bodied nylon string guitar" if I can make them work well enough. I am not confident that I could make a good copy, even with a P.abies top. I just don't have any exposure to the originals. Maybe one day I will, but I'm saving that effort for FE17. I'm hoping to access the experience and help of a friend of mine who is quite accomplished in his Torres work, and local, too. (Daryl Perry, http://www.perryguitars.com)

I've been thinking about pegs or machines. I think that the girls' guitars will have machines, but am thinking that mine might have pegs.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Attachment:
SE 151A.jpg


As you can see, my copy of SE 151A is still under construction.
Top thickness (German spruce) is 2mm to 1.8mm at the edges of the lower bout. Back thickness (Cypress) is around 1.8mm overall, sides are 2mm.
These are based on my overall impressions of the original rather than any actual measurements.
The major difference between SE117 and SE 151A is that the 117 guitar is rather deeper, there are a few cosmetic differences as well but nothing significant.

http://www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com/
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Thanks for the info David. So, if I read your comments correctly, the top thickness is treated more or less the same as for the larger guitar? Maybe just a little thinner?

Any thoughts about stringing it up? String choices, pitch?

These really are very charming guitars. I can't wait to have them finished! Christmas is the deadline...
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Yes, just proportionally thinner.
I'll probably just put a normal tension set on mine and tune to standard pitch.
The original worked quite well this way and had a sweet, bright charming sound.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Attachment:
#92 022.jpg


Here is a side shot of the guitar next to the FE09 replica (in progress) and one of my own to show the relative proportions of this very small charming size.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Torres SE117; some construction detail questions.
Thanks for the pictures, David. I'm really looking forward to these guitars. I hope that they come out OK.
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