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Bracewood
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18831		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  J Jones [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Bracewood
So i was browsing lmi, and got looking at the brace wood and it got me thinking....

What wood do you guys prefere to brace with? do you feel that the choice of this wood has any tonal benefits? if so what? or does asthetics play a role eg using mahogany for the darker browner woods and a spruce for the lighter more maplely woods?

sorry for the probing questions, i just want to learn more and completely forgot to ask ppl this question at the cheltenham show

thanks

jonny
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
I use red spruce on all my builds. I think it is one of the best strength to weight ratios out there
john hall
blues creek guitars
Author:  LanceK [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
+1 to Johns comments, PLUS its purdy! :D
Author:  J Jones [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
cheers guys, ur quick!

so the primary consideration is strength to weight ratio? i was reading the r taylor website and they say red spruce adds extra prejection and tone.... guess that was just sales speak... lol
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
First attribute for good brace wood is weight to strength ratio. Spruce will win that hands down and with the comon spruces Red or Addi consistantly wins out. I also like to use euro and sitka.

There are so many things that when added togather affect the tone so to give a specific tone attribute to a brace wood is not really definable in my opinion.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Spruce is the best for steels for sure!
Weight is a factor-Lutz is very good !!!
It's strong & low in weight!

For classicals I use 30 year old Euro;
Engelmann,Lutz , Red Cedar, & Port Orford Cedar!!!

The brace stock I've received from High Mountain Tone Woods
Is great!
No runout !!!!!!
Shane cuts it right!!!!!!1 [:Y:]
Nice weight to strength ratio!!!!!!

Mike
Author:  J Jones [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
cheers guys,

btw i live in the UK, does anyone know a decent supplier of brace wood there? david dyke just has "spruce" "x brace set" which i think is a bit vague (also the back bracing is maple/hog), and i can find nowhere that sells adi spruce in the EU (in brace form), and most places just have billets, and being as i have only 2 months of wood working experience, i would rather not try and split wood then have to re work it gaah
or i could just dive in at the deep end?
or import it from america! lol
Author:  Frank Aarre [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
have you checked with joel? http://www.tonewood-supplies.co.uk/

seems like a guy who is eager to please.

Frank
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Add another vote for red spruce and for the same reasons as John Hall said.

But this is not to say that other spruces would not be great too.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Well, let's see...

Western Red cedar usually has a higher stiffness to weight ratio along the grain than spruce. Balsa wood has the highest stiffness to weight ratio of any reasonably avalable wood; why not use that? ;)

So OK it's not _just_ stiffness to weight ratio: the spruces in general are tougher; they resist splitting better. They are also a lot harder than things like cedar and balsa.

Besides, have you ever weighed the braces on one of your guitars? I find that a top plate will weigh something like 150 grams, and _all_ of the bracing on the top might weigh 30-40 grams. The disparity on a rosewood back is even greater. Really light Englemann spruce might have a density of around 350 kg/meter^3, while dense Sitka or Red will be more like 500, so the dense stuff is about 40% heavier at a given size. Of course, you can cut down the size of a Red spruce brace as compared to most Englemann, simply because the Red is stiffer, so the actual installed weight difference is not as great; maybe 25% or so. That's the diference between the heavier and lighter sets of bracing, but it's still only 10 grams, on a top that weighs 180 grams. Trying to shave the last whisker off the weight of the braces might not be all that big a deal; you'd do better in the weight department paying more attention to the top itself.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
I didn't see basswood mentioned.It's suppost to be one of the best for braces.It also has great glueing properties as well as being lite in weight.Mark
Author:  Brock Poling [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
For me the choice of spruces really boils down to consistancy. All things being equal which are the most similar in terms of stiffness and density. Realizing that every piece has some differences I find that red spruce is the most consistent (in my non scientific empirical study ;) )
Author:  joel Thompson [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
J Jones wrote:
cheers guys,

btw i live in the UK, does anyone know a decent supplier of brace wood there? david dyke just has "spruce" "x brace set" which i think is a bit vague (also the back bracing is maple/hog), and i can find nowhere that sells adi spruce in the EU (in brace form), and most places just have billets, and being as i have only 2 months of wood working experience, i would rather not try and split wood then have to re work it gaah
or i could just dive in at the deep end?
or import it from america! lol


Send me a pm or email with what you want.
i have very good brace stock in engleman/sitka/and euro take your pick :D

you will be hard pushed to find adi in the uk its impossable to buy wholesale at prices that would make it worth whole to stock,

joel.
Author:  J Jones [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
alright cheers guys,

im not sure what i will need yet, im thinking ill wait till the olf plans are available on stewmac till i start my first solo build, OMs rly dont float my boat if u catch my drift. u will be my first port of call though joel :D

so if adi is taken out of the equation, which spruce is best?

also is it best to use cedar for the back joint reinforcement because of its extra strength with the grain?

also would it be sensible to use balsa for grafts? or just use a propper brace that can be voiced in place of grafts? or would this rly make a difference?

i think too much.... too many questions, sorry guys. i need to make a little book to write all of this down in... lol
Author:  joel Thompson [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Hey johnny,

Is this your first guitar?
or have you a few under your belt?

if its an early guitar i would not stress to much about things like what brace wood to use and consantrate on construction technique.

that said i like euro spruce for braces on classical and small bodied guitars and i tend to go for engleman or sitka for anything over an om.
allthough cedar can sound nice on small bodied guitars with cedar tops.
this is just my pref and you will find that every one has a type of brace wood they like best.
i hear lutz is very nice and you can get that from shane at high mountain.
i dont stock lutz becouse there are no wholesale suppliers that i know of and shipping cost to the uk for pallets are stupidly high at present which means that have put a few orders on tempory hold till things settle down.

as for the back races i like mahogany but the same spruce that you are using for you top bracing should more than suffice.
as for the back graft if you are using a spruce top take the cross grain cutt off's from your top and splice them to get a 21" long strip and use this.
if using mahogany find some cross cut strips from somewhere and do the same thing.

a few people have mentioned balsa for braces and grafts lately but i think its to soft and not stiff enough myself and would stick with spruce personaly.
i am of the "if it aint dont fix it" school of thought with things like this.

Of course this is just my preferd way of doing things you may well find a diferent method that works for you,

joel.
Author:  J Jones [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
cheers joel

atm i have half a guitar under my belt :oops: just need to bind it and glue it all together (i make it sound so easy....)

so i am planning my first solo build, ie doing it all myself as oppsed to using a kit.

i suppose i am putting too much thought into the little details, but its the little details that add up into big details, and better to put thought in now, when im not doing anything, than think about it later when i have the temptation to make a rushed decision just to get on with it.

but thats just me, i like to know where im going, though often not knowing is more exciting ;) .

i think i might just go with euro spruce, as that is what i am planning to use for the top, an in my books that is a good enough reason!

thanks for all your help and putting up with my disorganised ramblings, i have no idea what i would do without the advice of you guys! [:Y:]
Author:  joel Thompson [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
hey no need for the :oops: we all start somewhere.

its good to think about these details ahead of time.

i like to plane the whole guitar right down to the bindings and how these will tie in with the rest of the guitar.
i like there to be a theme going on throughout the guitar.

The euro spruce is a good choice the billets i have are good and will do both the top and back with one billet.

this forum is here to get you through the whole process of building your guitar good and bad,

joel.
Author:  joel Thompson [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
that should be plan not plane :shock: :? :oops:

Joel.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
slabmaster wrote:
I didn't see basswood mentioned.It's suppost to be one of the best for braces.It also has great glueing properties as well as being lite in weight.Mark


Who says this? Basswood IMO would not be a good brace wood. It's light in weight for a hardwood, but stiffness and strength to weight don't approach spruce, and it seems to have high damping.
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
I have seen many woods used on bracing but hardwoods like bass wood and mahogany were used on mostly very low end instruments. All higher end guitars use spruce. If I had to list my favorites
1 red spruce
2 sitka
3 engleman
I also used lutz once with a good result. I do use a deflection test for stiffness of the top , that lets me decide on the top thickness and the bracing height I need. There is more to bracing a top than gluing on sticks LOL. Keep a building log and note each thing you do. The more you build the more you learn.
john hall
blues creek guitars beehive
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Where can I get some nice billets of red spruce?? (enough for several guitars)

I need some yesterday. I thought Shane was going to send me something, but I never heard back after two or three e-mails.

John, can you assist?

Mike
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Colonial tonewood or RC tonewoods probably both have some. If not, try Old Standard.

My best bracewood is recyled from old construction lumber that I find locally. There is lots to pick from here as this whole country was built with Picea abies. You have to pick through and split a lot of boards of course, and you end up with a big pile of kindling, but it can be rewarding.
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
As you over here in the UK I wouldn't even think of using anything other than European spruce. Give Joel a call he'll sort you out.

Colin
Author:  bluescreek [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
I have some in stock. I can size it if needed. $25 bd ft
Author:  zac_in_ak [ Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracewood
Just to throw some gas on the fire...I have heard to use the same wood on braces as you are bracing i.e. Cedar top and cedar bracing. The rationale was that they would have the same expansion rate..anybody do this? any thoughts
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