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| The Torres Cardboard Guitar http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=17618 |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
That really is looking great, David. |
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| Author: | Claire [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Hi David, I agree, its looking fantastic. ![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations") I've been watching this with alot of interest, and I'm I'm kind of excited about it....  .I hope you post a soundbite!!! And I'm sure everyone else is thinking the same thing...lol Aint the OLF a great place!! cheers, Claire |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Additional progress today: Fret board installed and fretted. Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 008.jpg Preliminary neck carving done. Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 002.jpg Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 003.jpg The pilot Holes for the wooden pegs are drilled, the odd uneven positioning is seen on the original. The neck once had a 7th peg in the center equidistant from the top four. Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 004.jpg Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 006.jpg Here is the heel, I always like to live with the neck shaping for a few days and take another look at it when I'm fresh in order to further refine it. The tall heel with slender profile is seen on the original guitar. One of the fun aspects of this type of project is attempting to capture the character of the original instrument. Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 001.jpg Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 007.jpg The bindings have also been leveled and scraped. In this particular aspect the cardboard has taken away any advantage that it might have had initially (cheap, of even thickness etc.) in that this operation was far more finicky that if done in wood. Because I chose a board with an outer paper layer, no scraping or sanding is possible to assist in leveling the binding with the sides and back. Also the softness of the cardboard makes accurate cutting of the binding channels difficult, also the glue tends to soften and deform them slightly as the bindings go in.........I can perhaps see why Torres only made one of these! However the thing rings like a normal construction when you thump it............ Attachment: CardboardTorresXIV 001.jpg
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| Author: | cmacksam [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Impressive, David! It looks so life-like. 
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
David, I hope you write an article for Guitarmaker or Lutherie magazine. This is exactly the sort of thing that they need. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Mike Mahar wrote: David, I hope you write an article for Guitarmaker or Lutherie magazine. This is exactly the sort of thing that they need. Yes, second that! |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
I'm applying egg white to the top and bindings to prevent bleeding once the wash coat of shellac is applied. Since only the top and neck with get a full blown french polish finish (the back and sides will get a very sparingly applied seal coat of shellac) I'll be working them up separately. Attachment: CardboardTorresXV 001.jpg I just received my replica pegs today and have given them their preliminary fitting. I produced a drawing of the pegs that Torres typically used from my research and had them made by a luthier and peg maker in the UK. These particular ones are rosewood and unadorned as on the original. Attachment: CardboardTorresXV 002.jpg Attachment: CardboardTorresXV 003.jpg I'm ready to undertake the french polish on the top. The original of this guitar has a rather dark polish which I will attempt to replicate. Attachment: CardboardTorresXV 005.jpg
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
David, I'm enjoying this a lot. Really an exciting project. An aside: Have you found that sizing with egg white will prevent color bleeding from a wood such as cocobolo under shellac or nitro lacquer topcoat? Cocobolo, especially, has given me bleed problems, and shellac as a sealer has not helped. Do you use straight egg white, or do you make a glare first? Thanks! |
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| Author: | Marc [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Nice looking pegs. Great work on the heel, I like the profile. The whole guitar is fascinating. It looks very light weight with the use of the peghead and cardboard, I'm wondering what the final weight will be. Is it fragile or stronger that you expected? |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Howard, I'm using the egg white just as it comes from the shell. It works better if you brush it smoothly as opposed to vigorously and whipping it into a froth. I haven't had any experience in regard to Cocobolo. The worst wood in my experience has been good old East Indian rosewood. The alcohol in the shellac wash coat really makes a mess with this stuff. The egg white wash coat has solved this problem for me. Here is a recent guitar where the wash coat nicely prevented any bleed from the Brazilian rosewood inlays into the lighter cypress and spruce. Attachment: Complete#90 006.jpg Attachment: Complete#90 005.jpg Marc, according to Grondana and Waldner, the orginal guitar weighs in at 2.55 lbs (1.16 Kg). As I mentioned earlier, I used a bit thicker board than Torres on the back (2.2mm opposed to 1.8mm), and much thicker on the sides (2.2mm opposed to 1mm) than Torres. I also omitted all the additional reinforcement that has been subsequently added to this guitar including two slats that run the length of the back on either side as well as side stays every 3 cm or so. My digital scale wouldn't register the weight of the replica so I'll have to check it elsewhere. It is however much more rugged than I would have anticipated. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Monica Esparza describes the egg wash process nicely here: http://www.monicasguitars.com/Main%20Bo ... ggwash.htm |
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| Author: | CWLiu [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
I've used egg white or thin HHG for sizing and both can prevent bleeding. But this barrier can be wore easily during the pumice pore-filling process unless the shellac film is thick enough. David, do you have a better way? Luckily the pores of cocobolo aren't big. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
I also wanted to recommend my peg source. http://www.brucebrook.co.uk/ He did a really nice job of replicating my specs for the correct type of pegs. Attachment: Pegs 001.jpg In addition to the plain rosewood ones for the replica, he did a very nice set in ebony of the ones with the little bone domed "caps" so often seen on original Torres instruments. I produced a drawing for these based on my photos the original SE 151A guitar. Attachment: Pegs 002.jpg
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
CW, I'm using the LMI micro bead filler then sanding it back prior to the egg wash application. That way the film remains intact. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Thanks, David. FYI, here's how to make a glare. I haven't tried it yet, but it's apparently done in order to prevent frothing when painting on the egg white. Glare has been used for many centuries to size paper to limit its adsorption, so that ink will make a sharp line, and not spread. Glare Recipe Whip one egg white until stiff peaks form. Sprinkle approximately 1/3 egg of water over peaks (“1/3 egg of water” means eggshell of water, that is, the volume of water that would fill, in this case, the smaller half of the eggshell). Let stand over night. Egg whites will become frothy and liquid will separate out; pour this liquid out from under the froth into a jar. This is the glare. Discard frothy stuff. Stored in the refrigerator, the glare will last for months. It may discolor and get a little more yellow or brown. It will also get smelly. So long as the liquid remains clear, it is fine; the older the better for good consistency. If the liquid gets cloudy or milky, the glare has spoiled and is breaking down chemically—discard and prepare a new batch. |
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| Author: | ClintB [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Thanks for sharing all this with us, David. I know the LMI's micro-bead filler is tinted. I was surprised that it's put on before the egg-wash. Do you tape over all your purflings etc. when applying the filler, or just spread it everywhere. I've only ever pumice filled then FP'd so I don't have any experience with this stuff, but I hate working the pumice in and want to try something like the micro-bead or Z-poxy - and not make a mess of things for once. -Clint |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Clint, LMI's Micro bead filler (even the dark "walnut" color that I use) once dry sands off wood purflings nice and cleanly. In the case of the guitar shown above I taped off the cypress and spruce and just filled the purflings but that was done to actually lessen the work since the cypress and spruce did not need to get any filler.I usually sand the guitar to 100 grit, apply filler to the sides and back entirely then resand with 100 and resume up the grits to 180 (or 220). |
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| Author: | ClintB [ Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Thanks again David. I think I'll try that method on my next. |
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| Author: | CWLiu [ Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Thanks David. This is an excellent project! |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
The French polishing is proceeding well. Attachment: CardboardTorresXVI 002.jpg It is believed that this is Torres' only guitar which originally had a golpeador (tap plate) so here is my replica, in European maple as on the original. I'll attach this last once the bridge is on. Attachment: CardboardTorresXVI 001.jpg
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Fascinating, David! Many thanks for posting your progress. Steve |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Just a guess/hunch, but I really doubt the golpeador was set by Torres. The top is getting a nice vintage look! What shellac type are you using? |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
Alex, it's the Shellac4 (Amber) from LMI. As far as the Golpeador the assertion that it's original is made by Grondona and Waldner....it is interesting to note however that Romanillos doesn't mention it in the several books where the guitar is included. This brings up an interesting point in making replicas of Torres' (or any other maker's) guitars. Should one reproduce the guitar in it's present configuration? Or, should the guitar be made as the maker (as far as it can be determined) originally made it? If the latter is the case, then most Torres replicas should have wooden pegs in place of the machine heads that have been later added (along with extra wood to thicken the pegheads) to them. La Leona is a good example of this, where a 4mm rosewood plate has been added to the head along with "crude" slots for the tuning machines. Indeed some original Torres guitars have had machines from the beginning (FE 08 and FE 17 are good examples or SE 114). But I would be surprised if those making replicas of the ones that had pegs originally, were making them in that original configuration. Original or no, I will most likely use the tap plate in that it is unique and the guitar is immediately recognizable with it. My thought process in general in making replicas (SE 114, FE 14 and SE 151A) has been to seek out guitars that first are appealing, would be nice to have as part of my reference collection, but also guitars which I have either seen in person, handled or had excellent information as to their details. Thus I've selected those which met the first criteria, but for which I had enough documentation that I could make a replica that would feel, most importantly to me, credible. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
I'm at the point in the polishing where it's best to leave off. The limitations of the cardboard (the more you fool with it the worse it looks...) are such that I think a nice thin polish will look best with the thin sealed cardboard surface. Attachment: CardboardTorresXVII 001.jpg Attachment: CardboardTorresXVII 002.jpg Here is the bridge getting its polish prior to positioning. Attachment: CardboardTorresXVII 003.jpg
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Torres Cardboard Guitar |
the golden tone of that top is very nice!! I will definitly try egg+darker shellac on my next Euro top. I will soon start finishing a Lutz guitar but it has a pinkish quality to it so i guess a neutral shellac will be better? |
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