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French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=16740	Page 1 of 2

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
I know, I know, "When is he gonna finish that @*&%#+^ Guitar?" I am trying. I have gotten things pretty well pore filled, and have several body sessions on the back, sides and neck, one on the headstock and top, as I just started those today...well, last night I did the spit coats. I have been playing it every day, and didn't want to take off the strings and the tuning machines. Here are some pictures of the progress. I still have a few splotchy light spots. Not really sure how to deal with them. I welcome any suggestions or comments for improvements in process. Seems I'm getting a better build-up here than on the guitar. Attachment: P1000763 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000762 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000765 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000754 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000757 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000770 (Large).JPG Attachment: P1000768 (Large).JPG Thanks, again, for looking.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
I don't know how all the pictures ended up where they did. They didn't look like that in the text, and I didn't know how to fix them. Wierd!

Author:	Anthony Z [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy I wish I had some words of wisdom regarding the splotchy bits of the top. This guitar is really looking nice under finish, I am seeing a gorgeous rosette, excellent mitres around the end graft, the cheeks of the neck fitting perfectly....and more! Very nice!

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Lookin' good Waddy. Looks like a pretty good build already - I always wonder where to stop. I still have trouble getting a even build around the bridge and fretboard (and neck heel). I was going to finish the next one with the bridge off, but now I may go ahead and string it up in the white and let it sit in case there is a french Polish event at the May gathering at John Hall's. It's a Reyes-style flamenco - the fretboard was glued on just 45 minutes ago. The bridge is already finished, so I'll spend tomorrow carving the neck and possibly gluing the bridge on. Exciting!

Author:	Hesh [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Nice work Waddy bro!!

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Thanks, guys. Jim, the bridge is a pain, but the alternative was to not be able to play the guitar until it was finished. Unacceptable! The heel doesn't seem to be a big problem. What is a problem, is that I seem to keep making these light splotches. I don't know how it happens. I guess too much concentrated effort in one area, and unknowingly hitting one spot much more than other areas. Now I have a fingernail scrape in the top. Great! Maybe I need to just quit for the day.

Author:	Dennis Leahy [ Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Go Waddy! Great to see you nearing completion/birth of the guitar. You can be mighty proud of that baby! Dennis

Author:	Dave Fifield [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Looking good Waddy! Keep going - you're almost there!! Cheers, Dave F.

Author:	Marc [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Good job Waddy.

Author:	Dave Anderson [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Hey Waddy , You are doing great! It looks very nice,especially the mitres,headstock, and rosette! Hard to believe this is your first guitar.Very Impressive buddy! I wish I could help on the finish but I've never french polished. Keep on with it,I'm sure it will come out nice.

Author:	David LaPlante [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Hi Waddy, I wasn't just being facetious when I quipped after you completed the build "now comes the hard part", though all things considered you are still doing well.....!........ French polish is not an "easy" finish. I'd leave off the top and concentrate on the back/sides and neck. The darker wood is far more forgiving colorwise as you can see and I think the color will even out to a greater degree as you progress. You can then decide if you want to remove the top finish and start again having had lots of practice on the rest of the guitar. You might consider using an overall lighter material on the top as well. I always finish my tops "bridge off". After a while one learns to wait to play the guitar and the relative ease and superior results are worth the patience. However the one exception I've made is the guitar I built in Spain at the Romanillos course, with that one where I attached the bridge I've masked it off to just deal with poishing the top only. I think trying to do both at the same time will make an even build harder. Once the top is done I'll mask it off and polish the bridge. Hang in there.......... Best

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
I'm beginning to believe, David. I may well be starting over on the top. I quit last night, and figured I'd decide today. I may try once more to recover it, but I keep thinking it isn't that hard to start over on the top. I goes pretty quickly, once it's spit coated. I keep trying to patch these splotchy areas, but they keep getting worse. I may be beating a dead horse here.

Author:	JJ Donohue [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy...the level of luster looks great but I agree...the blotches are bothersome. Having done only 4 FP guitars myself, I can't say I ever saw such blotches. Having read the description of your method you may have determined the cause as spending too much time, pressure and effort in one spot. FWIW, I can say that I use long strokes that cover the entire length of the guitar and try to methodically glide that surface evenly, at the same speed and using the same downward force. Obviously, the bridge will challenge this method and possibly others might help there. I have a feeling that the only way to eliminate the blotching is to sand it all back and start over. I hope I'm wrong but if not, it's all part of the sometimes difficult learning curve. Hang in there, dude!

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Nah, I think you are right. Did you ever want to make something work that you knew probably wouldn't? Sometimes, I think I am the King of getting blood out of a turnip. I should probably cut my losses. Well, maybe one more try!

Author:	jfrench [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy, before you remove the finish on the top and try again try this: Use some steel wool with a drop of alcohol on it and try to even it out the color that way. Just be careful and work slow with almost dry steel wool. Did you use egg white on the top beforehand? If you redo, I'd use egg white then a couple coats with pale FP then color. Its not too difficult to get a good build around the bridge, but it gets a little more complicated when you're using tinted shellac for sure. Looks like you're doing a fine job everywhere else.

Author:	David LaPlante [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
I use long strokes as JJ does as well, also I wouldn't sand but use Joshua's approach with alcohol to even out or remove the polish..................even if you take it "all" off with the alcohol you will still be left with with what will be the equivalent of the seal coat that you can start to build again.

Author:	JohnAbercrombie [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy- Nice looking guitar- you should be proud of yourself- mitered purfling on your first- impressive. I'm still definitely in the 'learner' group for FP. However, I've had to fix a bunch of mistakes, so.... There's no need to sand if you are removing a FP finish. I had to remove the finish from a top when taking Sergei deJonge's course and the method recommended was to saturate some paper towels with alcohol (DA- the cheap stuff is good here) and lay the towels on the top. (Avoid drips and tear/cut the towels to follow the top perimeter.) After a few minutes (5?) you can wipe a lot of the finish off. A second or third 'go' with the towels may be needed. I think the total time to remove the finish was about 15 minutes, though it was easier without neck/FB or bridge attached. I agree with the recommendation to use a more 'blonde' shellac on the top so that uneven spots are not so obvious. If this guitar is for your own use, you can get away with a very thin FP coat on the top as well- you can always add to it later. My first FP efforts (using books and internet advice) gave me trouble because I was thinking about 'laying down coats' of FP the same way I sprayed lacquer- I had way too much shellac on the surface, and then ended up pushing it around and getting uneven coverage. Hang in there- the neat thing about FP is that it is very reversible so you can always start over or do it again at a later time. Cheers John

Author:	Alexandru Marian [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy, you might want to cut your nails and wear a glove. The thumbnail scratches can get very nasty if the pad goes wild and rolls under pressure. I've made one nearly 1mm deep and 2cm long ! It looks horrible. I've tried a few times to push really really hard. While I didn't get more shine, I managed to remove the finish down to bare wood. But I never got a blotchy patch. I've also found that I get an even color even if the rubbing patterns are erratic and ignoring some areas. I am wondering whether it is not the fault of the egg white sizing. If you didn't apply it very evenly, it will be worse and worse under finish. For example on the back of my cypress guitar I made the mistake of adding a full seal coat, and then a second only on the top half. After the first polishing session it was looking ok, but after 1 more, the zone with 2 seal coats is visible from certain angles, and appears a bit darker. And a second thing: for a couple of light nail scratches which didnt dent the wood much I simply sanded the shellac away and started over. I didn't get any blending issue, but the area looks slightly lighter in color from certain angles.

Author:	Sam W [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
I'm a beginner french polisher here but: I had the same problem as well with the top. Out of frustration, I actually used some pumice (probably not the correct thing to do for various reasons). However, it actually helped to smooth out the blotchiness. This led me to thinking that maybe some sanding between sessions (with sandpaper not pumice) might help to smooth out the surface. I am planning on trying this on the next one to see if it helps. Maybe someone will chime in here with ideas for helping with this issue - is sanding between sessions a recommened procedure? I did not have the same problems with the back/sides/neck. Since the top is softer it may be more difficult to get a smooth and level surface. By the way, your guitar looks beautiful - great work.

Author:	Ricardo [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Waddy, very nice! You can see from my recent posting of my cocobolo concert uke that I also have the splotchies on the french polish top. I think its from an uneven application. Some areas I went over more times, so the thicker the finish the darker it is. I'm about ready to give up on it as to fuss ass.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Thanks everyone. I did take the top down. It was not cooperating at all. At the end of last night, I had scratched it twice with my nails (Alex), trying to repair splotches. I took it down this morning, and re-sealed, waited a few hours, spit coated, waited, spit coated, did the sides and back again, twice, then started in on the top. I explained in a new post. HERE I am much happier than I was last night. Going light to start is surely the key. Should have done it on the back too, but I think it is going to work out fine before I'm done with it. Thank you all for your great support, suggestions and comments. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the support I get from this forum. It is just great, and the advise is always worthwhile.

Author:	Sam W [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Any thoughts on sanding between coats? LMI actually recommends this on their website tutorial here: http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FrenchPolish.htm (It's listed under the section entitled "Level the shellac layer by wet sanding -" I've read so many different things on the subject and I'm just trying to learn from what appears to be the same issues I had. Thanks for the help.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Sam, I didn't sand between coats. Nor did I sand the spit coats. Maybe I should have, but they were pretty clean initially. The only sanding, other than taking the first top finish off, was some 400 grit with oil on a couple of places where there would be a little bump or spot where I had an area of pumice build up that I couldn't get rid of, or a spot where my muneca would hang and make a blemish. I did do one full rub-down of rottonstone with oil on the back to reduce a little of the waviness caused by my inexperience, but I don't think that will be necessary on subsequent finishes. The more I do, the more I get the feel. Keeping the muneca dry enough, seems to be the biggest challenge to me. Finding that area between too wet and too dry is elusive, somehow. I think anyone can do the finish, it takes experience to do it well. I think sanding is required when the finish is not applied as designed, and too much build up with uneven application is done. If done correctly, I don't think it should be necessary. Maybe a good way to save a job going badly, or a short-cut method.

Author:	Sam W [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Thanks Waddy for your insights. I was fairly happy with my results on the hardwoods (b/s and neck) but the top is what gave me problems. I'm still not sure why though. I 'm hoping to have my 3rd classical ready for finishing by this fall. There is a lot of reference material for french polishing out there and I plan to read, take my time and refine my technique even more. You have done an amazing job on your first guitar.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: French Polishng - Waddy's First Guitar
Thank you, Sam. Just lucky.

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