Official Luthiers Forum!

As Many of you know I offer a Standard series guitar (formally known as my Student series) That is a simple no frills not even side purfling. I can build this series in a very short period of time at a very low price. It is limited to 3A Engelmann, Sitka or Western Red Cedar, Mahogany or IRW with Curly Maple or IRW binding. I state explicitly on my site that there are no options available on the Standard series.

Yet I have 2 prospective clients that keep coming back to me wanting quotations on this model but they keep asking for option variants I have this rule that I am always pleasant to my prospects and I know both really want to place an order but neither can afford a Custom series.

One of the options one wants is a 27" scale that he can tune between E-e and down to C-c with interchangeable nut saddle and strings dependent on the range I have explained over and over that I do not allow option variants in this series and what he is asking for is not the best option cor a single instrument and that he really should have two different guitars and the C-c is darn near a baritone anyway.

Anyway I finally sent out new quotes to each offering a small discount on the Custom series but I know this is more than they want to spend so I also included a quote on the Standard series with a small discount and a note to pleas not again ask for options on the Standard series as I will not allow them on that series.

What is so hard to understand that custom options are not available on the Standard series?

Unfortunately Michael, we live in a world where yes means yes and no means yes. Montgomery Wards can be blamed for putting the idea in peoples heads that the customer is always right. Look where they are now. I believe in good customer service, but I also believe that the consumer needs to be responsible too. And by that, I mean reading the fine print amnd realizing that a standard series is just that, standard. I think you are being a very good sport in offering the discount on your custom series. I hope your potential customers appreciate the effort.

_________________
Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

Why would you discount your custom line when you know what they really want is a custom guitar? There comes a time when no means, well, no! Or as Grumpy would say, Hell No!

Be pleasant and professional about it, but by all means, stick to your guns and don't hem yourself into a nightmare. If they are this hard to deal with before you even GET the commission, what happens afterward?

You are a professional in a skilled business. You have explained the terms upon which you will do business. Sometimes you have to be the one to pull the plug on a prospect. This can be a very unprofitable customer for you if the changes keep on coming. If you want to work hard enough at managing the customer, then perhaps you two can strike an accord that makes sense for you and for them, but it doesn't sound from your post that its headed that way.

_________________
Mitch

Why the discount? Both are repeat clients from my early days

ahhhhh, the REST of the story....

Well, its fantastic that you have this problem, first of all, but I still would say something along the lines of "If you trusted me enough to come back to me on another guitar purchase..." etc. etc. etc....

_________________
Mitch

As I see it, it might be a good idea to have more than two levels then.
Perhaps what you need is a semi-custom level where you allow only certain changes?

Out of curiosity, do you allow any changes in your standard series such as neck profile? If so, it's really a low-level custom guitar, and that sends a mixed signal to perspective clients.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you're locking yourself and your customers into a higher price point on a custom guitar. Really, you should start with the same base price, unless certain features are standard with the custom, like Waverlies and wood bindings vs Schallers and plastic...

I think the issue may be more the way you market your product in two lines than that of your customers not getting it...you need to find them a way to get what they want at a price that is reasonable. Every guitar you make is really custom anyway when you think about it...so just upcharge based on the added materials and labor and save your self some grief. Part of your problem frankly is that your standard line is way too inexpensive. And you're giving them an Ameritage case too? That's insanity! Stop it! Your product is worth far more than that, even the base model. Perhaps this is what is giving you the problems...time to move to a different price point on your base model.

I mean no disrespect, but I would re-think things...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Michael.... Customers from your early days - well, they of all people should appreciate that this is a business for you, not a charity operation. I dare say your technique has improved since the early days; therefore, it only stands to reason the $$ value has gone up as well. It's mighty kind of you to offer the discount, but really, who are you helping? It's your living and it will literally take money out of your pocket. I don't imagine the big Guitar companies offer discounts to repeat buyers.

The way I look selling anything, not just guitars, is I set the price at X dollars since I think X is a fair price for both me and the seller. I then stick to my guns. Invariably I get someone asking, "well how about I give you X-$50", that's usually the time I ask them what part of "Firm" they don't understand. Needless to say some people are put off by this, but so be it. 98% of the time they come back since they come to realize it's still a good deal. The one key to this whole thing is that the price be fair for everyone involved.

My 2 cents... Sorry about the rant but this whole customer is always right is a load. - I guess that's why I'm not a salesman!

_________________
Jamie M

think pizza hut.

a basic pizza is, oh I dunno, $10

add pepperoni it's $2 extra.

add red peppers its $2 extra

add pepperoni AND red peppers.......

whattaya know!!! $4 extra!!

I think Don may have a point........

I'm nowhere NEAR having fixed price points for models as I haven't built enough to settle into a style that I'll stick with, but when someone asks how much......

its a set price for a cheap back & sides with no purfling.

Expensive wood costs more, waverlies cost more. FWI pins cost more.

at the end of the day it's your business model

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Whoa... caught me at a bad moment... maybe next time I'll hit preview to look at what I'm actually posting. Sorry if I got off topic.

_________________
Jamie M

Don said a mouthfull, particularly:
" Every guitar you make is really custom anyway when you think about it...so just upcharge based on the added materials and labor and save your self some grief. "

Are you really that locked in by tooling? I can see, oh, say, Taylor, saying that a particular model is A, B, C, and D, and if you want to add E, or to change A for F, that's another model at a different price point. For my own stuff, half the time I'm not totally sure of what I'm going to make until I actually start it, and most of the rest of the time I only find out when it's done. How much extra work is it to cut a long scale fingerboard? What's the added material cost? Sure, you have to draw a line someplace, but it always seems to me that we're the folks who should be the most flexible about things. For me, if what they want is exactly the 'base model', then they pay the base price. Anything else is negotiable, but the 'upcharge' could very well be zero if the added effort/materials are negligable.

It is not custom at all. It is of course hand hand crafted (yes even the neck but my standard med thin D profile) guitar with only binding and top purfling simple rosette, rosewood fb, dot markers Grover chrome tuners. It is designed to be as simple and inexpensive as possible and still be a top shelf hand crafted instrument.

My customs are quoted based on what you want So to me to have a semi custom seems redundant. The only reason I can offer Standard series as low as I do is the limiting of the options and simplification of the components. To have a middle stage would just lead to more and more of the same thing. i start my customs at a more than reasonable price and up charge only the cost and labor of the custom spec. So I am not really sure what I can offer in a semi custom that you cant get in the custom.

Michael bro I am not saying that this is your fault or anyone's fault for that matter and I agree with the others who indicate that this is the problem to have.

But..... in my career I have trained hundreds of technology sales people who were tasked with securing complex, high-dollar sales of bleeding edge, difficult to understand, technology.

One of the most common issues that many of these folks shared was the inherent willingness to please Mr. and Mrs. customer by attempting to accommodated seemingly every request....... When in fact what they were doing by not limiting the scope of the deal to what was indicated as important to the prospect was introducing an additional level of complexity for all. This made it more difficult for the prospective client to make up their minds, more time passed, this introduced more risk of competition, everyone worked harder, and in the end nothing happened in a timely manner. At times deals were lost too because a sales person would in an effort to keep presenting and not shut up and listen offer information that turned out to be a conflict for the prospect - something that was not very important but could kill a deal if brought to the forefront.

So back to you. If you present yourself as a custom guitar builder offering a vast array of capabilities it is only natural for a prospective client to want to take you up on exercising your chops. Have you ever gone out to eat and the menu is 10 pages? How many times does the waitperson have to come back and see if you and yours are ready to order? This is what I am talking about here.

My suggestion is to examine your marketing materials including your web site for this: Am I trying to be everything to everyone? If you find that you are having your time wasted by people who may want something outside of the sweet spot of your value proposition consider roping in your message to the prospective customers AND also consider that you may be doing them a favor too.

Add complexity to doing business with you and you will most certainly add complexity to your life and time AND possibly risk losing a deal by extending the period of time needlessly when a prospect makes up their mind.

In short - it's the KISS thing.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

The only fixed price I have is for the Standard model it has no changable features. My customs are quoted based on the customer spec. as I have said before.

It reall does not get any simpler and still offer custom work then what I am doing

One simple quaility product line at a value price but with non chanable specs

One product line that allows the client to spec out what they want and is priced based on what they want.

I cant see a simpler way

I think you're set up the right way. The question, in the end, is if you're going to stick to your own rules or not. If you are, then there are no custom options on a standard model and you might lose a sale. If you're not going to stick to your guns, then you'll be underselling yourself. The difference is that you give an inch...

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Whether the amount of extra work is negligible or not, I think you should stick to the standard that you've set. Anything beyond that does nothing but cheapen your labor and open the door for others to ask for minor customizations here and there too. The pricing model that you've set up should be very simple for the average person to understand and clients should respect the fact that there is a reason that prices are set the way they are. I speak not from any experience as a luthier, but as a person who has worked in various retail and service businesses. While I agree somewhat with Alan's comment that we need to be most flexible with things, I also feel that there have to be lines drawn somewhere. Without at least a few set boundaries, you cannot run a business. If you start adding a little extra here and there, where do you draw the line in terms of when to start charging for those little extras? Standards exist so that there is a measure of objectivity when we deal with customers. A standard model is called a standard model for a reason and I'm sure that custom orders are priced fairly in accordance with the amount of labor and materials that go into the job so as long as the prices are fair, I don't see where the big problem should be...

Of course I believe in doing the occasional favor for someone in need or a person that happens to be a good customer... We are all human and we should make an effort to be understanding of each other after all. But understanding is a two-way street and clients need to realize that they should be prepared to pay for extra work and that any freebies are a favor given at the discretion of the builder, not something that the builder is obliged in any way to provide at no extra cost.

I think that product lines and pricing points are more about creating value than reflecting costs. I think if you're going to structure your business like this (as I do), then you need to be firm. Compromising on your lower-priced models takes value out of your more expensive ones.

When I first started selling my guitars a few years ago I started with a base price and a list of customisations. Every single addition on the basic instrument was +$xx as outlined on a pricing sheet. After doing that for a while it became apparent that the process was needlessly complicated and was only really reflecting added costs to me rather than creating inherent value in the instruments. It also seemed that doing it that way meant I'd end up giving two different customers completely different quotes for the same instrument because of how I worked it out each time.

I currently offer four different models of the same build. Ranging from a basic model from Tas blackwood that, like the Style 1 Weissenborn is unbound, up to my top model which is all Koa, features purfling etc. My rule is no upgrades -- if you want a mix of features from two models then it'll be priced the same as the upper of the two. For instance I only offer Koa on my top instrument, thereby creating a certain level of prestige and exclusivity. Under my old pricing system, there's no way I could price a standard Koa upgrade at a grand and expect people to actually buy.

_________________
Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com

Micheal:

I think your looking this the wrong way! Everytime this guy calls is an opportunity! An opportunity to sell him a custom guitar!

Sometimes one has to talk somebody into something that benefit both! I wouldn't change your business model because I think it's quite sound. I would quote, if he wants a standard with bindings, for a custom and build him a custom!

If he's bugging you simply to force you to do something you don't want to, remind him that your price scale goes up by 20% in 2 weeks to offset costs! Meaning the cost of putting up with him bugging you! He needs to "seal the deal" now!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I'm going to put this in no uncertain terms...

IF you are going to offer a base model price of $1200 WITH an Ameritage case in the Custom Guitar world, then you are causing yourself grief when people want something a little extra. You aren't a factory. You can't hand-make guitars dirt cheap, and sell the same thing for a lot more too. It is your own pricing structure that is at fault here, not the customer wanting something a little extra. What if he only wants wood bindings instead of plastic? You have the same cost in materials, and maybe an hour's more work, but for that you're going to charge them hundreds of dollars more for the same woods and everything else??? That's too high a premium for a buyer's choice on woods etc, and again, WAY too low a price point for that base model instrument. Your mindset on your pricing is what ultimately is causing the problem.

'nuff said.

Respectfully,

- Grumpy II

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Ok Guys First I never gave Don or anyone else permission to publish my pricing. I really wish if I had been asked first. Wouldn't you if the tables were turned.

Secondly none of you may understand my strategy with the Standard series but there is one and for me a good one. I appreciate that you are trying to identify the reason these two clients are asking for more. But I don't really feel this post was asking for a critique of my business strategies.

There are other things involved in process and construction of my Standard models that simple things for me. I am not going to go into detail on them here but they have to do with with wood I cull out due to flaws that will not affect structure or tone but that I do not want in my custom models and other things I have preprocessed and have ready to go that save me time. Plus the fact that I offer this model to allow those that can not normally afford what most luthiers charge a chance to own a hand crafted instrument. In exchange they allow me to build and learn.

This patronage served me well over the years. Do I make any money on Standard models? Not much but That was never the point of the model and I don't loose money on the either. I am sure most of you don't get it but the clients that had previously resigned them self to a 1k or less off the shelf instrument do and that is the point of my Standard model.

Sorry for the abruptness. But I have never told any of you how to charge for your work and was a bit shocked that some of you did me.

Now back to the day in and day out forum please!

It may be that they are trying to find some base price for your "customs". referencing the only price you offer(your "standard"). Maybe it would be simpler for the customer if you list a "custom" base price(with basic description) and a list of options available as well as a note that other custom options would be considered on a case by case basis. At least they would be able to reference a base "custom" model price that way. By leaving it wide open what else can a customer look to for reference other than your underpriced "standard"(although I bet that price catches attension).

Either way return customers are happy customers

Peace,Rich

For them to know my pricing at all required they visit my website so Don knew both. I really don't care they know I only care that they ask me before they publish it here.

For the record...Michael's prices are public domain on his website....here's the link:

http://mp-hand-crafted-guitars.com/2.html

I was trying to provide him with good advice and get him to see why he was experiencing his problems, so that he didn't have to berate his potential customers on the internet anymore...


Can't seem to get it through their heads....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I am sure that Don meant no harm and it's all to easy to not know in advance what someone may be sensitive to.

Perhaps Lance or Brock can edit the post to not include Michael's pricing?

Michael bro I am VERY sorry if some of the replies here including mine felt like we were piling on.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

hummmmm.....a "professional" guitar builder publicly complaining and critizicing his private customers!! You can bet they are reading this, too!!! NICE.