Official Luthiers Forum!

See you guys in a couple of hours!

Steve it was great to meet you yesterday and see ya later toady.

No need for name calling, Hesh!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Pics

I tried to fret something with the JAWS (not II or anything else) tool... I can't say I like it.

It takes a while to adjust the thing to where it will seat a fret well, which must be changed every 2 frets or so to account for the neck taper. As with pressing the frets with a drill press I can't seem to put enough pressure on it to actually seat the fret.

I still prefer my hammer. It's cheap and does the job well. Any serious fretting workshop/class should be teaching students how to fret with a hammer. No one should have to rely on a $250+ tool for this.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Greg and Alex I'll be posting lots of pics likely tomorrow so more to come.

Didn't mean to call anyone toady...... croak.....

Just finished the class.

Yes, using the Jaws is a bit of a PITA but It gets a little easier with practice & I think the results are better than hammering/tapping.

Thanks Hesh & Dave!

BTW it snowed about 7 inches here today so far

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

I'm sure it's good but it's a really expensive tool. About 600 dollars for the whole set. I think it goes without a saying that a beginner luthier should learn how to fret well with a hammer before using anything else. It's more versatile than you think.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Hi Tai Fu and thanks for your comments.

We use the Jaws II and IIRC there are now three different models so I can only comment on the Jaws II.

I just started another thread that you should take a look at and again.... I am only speaking of the Jaws II not any of the other versions of the tool. In the new thread is a picture that I promised OLFer Joel that I would share with everyone. It's a jig that Dave Collins invented that permits the Jaws II to fret every position on a neck with no hammering required.

Today all of our students received a complimentary jig to keep as well as some other goodies in their gift bags including a protective shield to also keep and use well into the future.

With out this jig or something similar in function the Jaws II cannot do some of the frets in the neck heel and extension region but with the jig it's not difficult.

We don't find the tool difficult to use at all and the only real thing that has to be changed a few times to fret the entire instrument is the fret caul. We taught our students to create compound radius boards and fret planes which has some real benefits but the fret cauls will change as you move down the neck with a compound radius.

The Jaws II is a great tool and we are a very busy, commercial shop and we have fretted likely hundreds of instruments over the past 8 years or so with our two Jaws II and we love the tool. There is a learning curve, you have to know what you are doing, and appropriate radius fret cauls are required.

As for the price of the tool some good tools cost some bucks and that's just the way it goes sometimes. Our work is guaranteed which is unusual in our business and as such we believe that if there is a better way to produce excellent results it's on us to make it happen. With our volume of business the Jaws II costs mouse nuts.... to us and ours have paid for themselves likely a hundred times over and maybe more.

If you ever get a chance to try the Jaws II, not the I, not the III please do and I would be interested in your thoughts.

I can't remember what we paid for our Jaws II but it was not $600 so I just checked and Stew-Mac sells the complete set with cauls for $127.

Thanks.

You are very welcome Kevin and it was great to see you again too. Remember we are now on tap for you into the future should you have any questions that we can help you with. Take care and safe trip home.

I was speaking of the entire Jaws line which Stewmac is saying all three is needed to fret the entire neck on all guitars. The one I tried was Jaws 1 which wasnt that impressive to be honest with you. It does take me longer to do it with the hammer but since my work volume wasnt high it didnt really matter. I thought that if I had to press frets I would get an arbor press. I do have the adapter for that. The only problem with the arbor press is that they are useless for set neck instruments

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

OK so it was the Jaws I that you tried, I can't comment, we never thought the tool to be useful for our purposes so we never wanted one or tried one.

The Jaws III was a bad idea when it came out IMO and we never bought that one either. If you noticed looks like no one else liked it either since Stew-Mac has discontinued it.

So I am talking about the Jaws II only here, that's all we ever mentioned not the complete Jaws family.

Another benefit of the Jaws II is that it's excellent for clamping frets since it's heritage as a tool is a clamp. It also has the ability with an over radius caul to clamp down loose ends that often result from inexperienced builders or repair people hitting too hard with the hammer springing the radius in the fret wire.

When the Jaws III came out I thought wtf.... and it seemingly didn't take too long for the thing to be discontinued.

Hammering is always a useful thing to know how to do well and we do that too when it's the best approach to a specific instrument and perhaps some of the frets in certain locations on that instrument.

We also are VERY old school and will hold lead blocks under the extension and hammer just like back in the day but only.... when.... for one reason of another we believe it to be the best approach to an instrument. An example might be an elaborate neck block and upper transverse brace implementation that making the caul for the Jaws II for a one-off repair would be more time consuming.

Be sure to wash hands after handing lead....

I've been doing the lead block under the extension thing for a while... I used a wood block before and it gave poor result. Lead made a huge difference. I covered the lead in tape to avoid touching it.

The reason I used wood block before was because in Taiwan since guns are essentially outlawed there was no obvious source of lead. LMI sells a "fret dolly" which is essentially a lead block with a handle for around 75 bucks, and I was like no way I'm going to pay that much. Then later on I did find a source of lead, I got a pound and cast it in an old pot into a block of wood.

I'm old school (I learned a lot of techniques from Frank Ford's site) simply because I can't afford fancy Stewmac/LMI tools. A lot of them are overpriced for what they are. While I do have their basic reamers and fixtures (nut files, nut spacing rule, etc) I didn't get enough work to where I could go blow 10,000 dollars on Stewmac fixtures. It took me a long time to even be able to get what I have. I know how to do stuff well, but I realized that in this world it's maybe 10% of what is needed for success. Plenty of people who are talentless (or even does horrible fret jobs) are much more successful because they have ways to get customers that I really don't have (and this is not a skill any schools can teach you). I would love to get a PLEK machine and use it on every single guitar I get my hands on, but the business doesn't make enough to even begin to pay 1/3 of the price of the machine.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Steel would be a good second choice for a massive block. Someone once built and posted pics of a Taylor style fret buck but made of wood..... One of the most important elements of the fret buck was not understood and that is that the thing has to be massive to provide a stable platform against the blows of the fretting hammer.

Good tools cost money and that's just how it is unless you make them yourself. I have to push back on the assertion that all or some of Stew-Mac's stuff is expensive.

That's not a perspective that you will hear from many of the pros. Instead we realize and recognize that we are fortunate to have Stew-Mac and that having something manufactured to meet the needs of two very different markets, hobbyists and pros AND manufactured in very small quantities is NOT easy or cheap.

There are lots of Stew-mac stuff that I won't recommend or use but over all you won't ever see me complaining about the price of SM offerings, LMI either because again as someone who had brought products to market most of my life now I know in advance that it's going to cost big time.... Just a patent alone can cost as much as a new car or more.

Something that may help you Tai Fu that helped us is the concept of incremental growth. The idea is that as a new business we need lots of things but only have so much money so we bought the things that we needed along the way prioritizing as we went. In short order and since we bit the bullet with the expenses already we had all that we need but never all that we want... Maybe earmark a "tool fund" with a percentage from each paying repair client and then raid the tool fund to get some of the stuff that you want?