Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:50 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:07 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:00 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Australia
I'm with Clay on this....Glue too thin



These users thanked the author jeffhigh for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:16 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:16 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13370
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Hey Brad. Forgive me please I only read your original post not having any time here with the rush of Christmas new instruments coming in for tune-ups.....

The notion of using HHG everywhere when building a guitar was once what they did because...... HHG is all they had...... For crying out loud as well you will find some purists here who attempt to compensate for poor endowment(s) by sticking out their chests and proclaiming that they do every joint with HHG.

What the hell good is this if you can't pull it off and issues and failures result????

Me, I'm not opinionated.....;)

My take on things since we have modern glues available to us is this. I used HHG for all braces, bridge plates, bridges, etc. I see no value in using it for linings, blocks, fret boards, head plates, nuts, frets, etc.

What's more important Brad is a guitar that can provide 100 years of trouble free service with perhaps a neck reset or two in there or the license to proclaim HHG purity.... with an audience of people, Luthiers who ultimately are not who you want to be pleasing?

So...;). with all of this "spewed..." use HHG where it makes sense. Follow the guidelines for it's use and watch open times. I see far more benefit in seeing each guitar as something with a defined beginning, a defined ending and then of course..... next over getting all strung out over something that really has NO measurable benefit, HHG on every joint.

Now I am sure there will be those who don't agree with me and there will be some pretty notable Luthiers who don't use a drop of HHG anywhere too favoring good ole Titebond original. Who cares.... use it where it makes sense to YOU! [:Y:]

As for me I don't give a rat's arse what others think of me I'm too busy making money as a Luthier......... By the way that's not something that we hear very often either.....


Last edited by Hesh on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:18 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:19 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3590
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
david farmer wrote:
If your parts are heated you should have plenty of time. The time is somewhat mass dependent. A thin layer will quickly become the temp of the piece. I like a large brush that holds a good volume of glue. put on a little too much and remove excess with the brush. the big brush provides a bigger mass to keep things hot while your spreading.
You'd know if you didn't make it because the gelled glue is not very compressible so the joint will not close tightly. There will be a pad of glue in between. If you do crush the gelled glue closed, the squeeze-out is different. Not beads of liquid but textured. Like squeezed out jello.

I don't think cooling is your problem.

Use some scrap blocks and wait too long on purpose to see what it feels like. The pieces just keep sliding around. They never come all the way together and grab.

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say :)

J De Rocher wrote:
I have a question based on these last two comments. Does hide glue require high clamping pressure to get a good joint? I haven't seen that come up in previous discussions about pros and cons of using hide glue.

No, as long as it's tight enough to counteract the sides cupping from moisture expansion, it should be good.

Water expansion can be a problem for bridge rub joints too. Flatsawn ebony is a lot more risky than quartersawn rosewood. I also had one fail due to wide and thin bridge wings curling up (well, technically it's not a complete failure yet since the rest of the joint is still intact now over a year later, but I still need to peel it off and redo it one of these days). For less curl-prone shapes, you can scrape the underside of the bridge slightly concave so it will expand to flat. Expansion of the soundboard could theoretically be a problem as well, though I haven't had any trouble with it.



These users thanked the author DennisK for the post (total 3): david farmer (Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:30 pm) • J De Rocher (Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:59 pm) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:29 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:29 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
david farmer wrote:
I don't think cooling is your problem....


Makes sense. I’ll experiment a bit with it and continue learning. As always, appreciate the feedback.

Hesh, I hear you for sure. I have a self imposed requirement to tame the HHG beast. Not to boast of an all HHG build, but just to make sure the skill is truly available to me. Hope you had a great holiday!!

Brad



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:30 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Alex Kleon wrote:
The pieces of router mat might have "released" and resulted in poor clamping pressure. Same thing happens with screw clamps on rubber hoses. After an initial snug fit, the rubber relaxes, and the clamping pressure lessens.

Alex


This is a good point. I have some cork. I’ll put it on with the 3m spray glue and we should be good to go.

Thanks for the hint!

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:37 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
david farmer wrote:
??????????????
Something fundamental is going on.
I've never had hide require heroics or be finicky.
Was the joint week and it came open, or was it strong but had a gap?
Do you know it was tight when u clamped it or could it have been rocked open as you described?
No waxed ends on the side set or other contamination?

I'm with George L. start with the glue working on scrap.

I typically put 25 grams of 192 in a jar and add 45 grams of water for total of 70.

painting both surfaces?


I just saw this, the replies were fast and furious and I missed it. :)

The joint was really good, it’s using the radius jig I just finished up. I can just lay the block in there and it looks good.

No contamination on the sides.

Thanks for your glue recipe. I will try that and compare it, consistency wise, to what I’ve been using.

Thinking back across the whole process, I think I had glue that was too thin and maybe also starved the joint. Maybe not from clamping pressure (jury is still out) but maybe just too much glue running off the block while get it set up? I’m super focused on time, sounds like too focused on time. I’ll test on some scraps and get a better feel for it. That way I’m more relaxed when I’m in the middle of it and there is a lot going on. :)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 1225
Location: Andersonville
State: Tennessee
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Never had any problem with HHG on neck and tail blocks (or anywhere else for that matter). I don't weigh or measure, just mix till i get the consistency of pancake syrup.
I use a wooden handscrew clamp for the portion of the block thats in the mold (and its tight) and the Irwin clamps for the four corners above and below the mold. Pre heat, clamp, 2 hours later, ready to move on. I'd look at the glue and do away with the padding plenty of squeeze out is better than less.
Took a class up at Ann Arbor guitars, feller named Hesh hustled me into buying the L-OO mold in the pic, going to be a nicely figured Honduran Mahogany Red spruce L-OO probably go with a burst on this one :mrgreen:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by Clinchriver on Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.


These users thanked the author Clinchriver for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:47 am) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:30 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:24 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:44 pm
Posts: 471
Location: Australia
First name: Allen
Last Name: McFarlen
City: Mt. Sheridan
State: Qld.
Zip/Postal Code: 4868
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
If you are ever worried about a joint using HHG, I recommend that you "size" the joint first. Brush on a thinned coat of glue to both surfaces and let dry. Then come back with your full strength mix. Then you are assured that the joint will have glue in it.

But honestly, I'm with Hesh here. I glue all braces, linings, soundboards / backs to rims, and bindings with HHG. But there is nothing to be gained by using HHG for every joint. Some just make far more sense to use PVA, CA or epoxy. In the case of neck and tail blocks I use a PVA. And I'm another Luthier that makes a living doing this full time.

_________________
Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia



These users thanked the author Allen McFarlen for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:47 am) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:30 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:33 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Allen McFarlen wrote:
If you are ever worried about a joint using HHG, I recommend that you "size" the joint first. Brush on a thinned coat of glue to both surfaces and let dry. Then come back with your full strength mix. Then you are assured that the joint will have glue in it...


Thanks, Allen! This is a good tip, makes great sense, and I would have never thought to do it. I appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:53 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3590
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
bcombs510 wrote:
Allen McFarlen wrote:
If you are ever worried about a joint using HHG, I recommend that you "size" the joint first. Brush on a thinned coat of glue to both surfaces and let dry. Then come back with your full strength mix. Then you are assured that the joint will have glue in it...


Thanks, Allen! This is a good tip, makes great sense, and I would have never thought to do it. I appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's especially useful for endgrain joints. Most glues will be starved due to the pores sucking up glue after you get it clamped. But since hide glue sticks to itself, you can use it to seal the pores before doing the actual glue up. Not quite as strong as a side grain joint, but still can be a pain to get back apart if you ever need to.

I always size my headstock scarf joints, since they have some endgrain to them.



These users thanked the author DennisK for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:54 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:10 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 2712
First name: ernest
Last Name: kleinman
City: lee's summit
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 64081
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
FWIW vlnmakers use a special bristle brush for gluing HHG check howard cores vlnmaking supplies website to get an idea. I use chinese bristle brushes (black) from e vil bay through china. Yes, I would not use quick grip clamps .You can purchase Small metal clamps from HF cheap vy handy. You might also make some test samples to see how long it takes for your HHG to set ! if your not doing it quickly enough consider a 1o per cent salt addition to depress the gell time , urea is used as well . Check around, there might be a few more gel depresants that can slow down the gel time of HHG. ?? Oh yeah a cheap kitchen timer from the dollar store or a count dwn timer from amazon , radio shlock ebay etc can give you an idea of how long it takes to glue your block in place .Good luck and parctice on scrap first.!



These users thanked the author ernie for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:48 am) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:36 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:23 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 3059
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Brad--

The replies came pretty fast, so I am probably not going to add much that is new, but I do have a few things to suggest.

First, don't feel pressure to be all that precise on the ratio of dry glue to water. Make the glue as thin or as thick as you need for the job. I see in your quick YouTube video that you have one of the neat brass glue pots from MusiCaravan. I love mine, because it fits into my work habit of making just a few ounces of fresh glue for every task. Do I need thick glue for this job? Then I make thick glue. Do I need thin glue? I make a little thin glue. Do I need it to stay liquid a long time? I make some, then add some urea. you get the picture. For this job, I think you feel your glue was too thin. So make it thicker, and work by feel instead of by measured parts. You can always thin it out if it feels too thick.

Second, use gravity to your advantage instead of letting it kick your arse. If your glue is running down the joint, and running out of the joint, then position the work so that the surface that has the glue on it is horizontal, with the glued surface facing up. You can thicken up the glue to solve this problem, but you can also just keep the glue in the right place longer by not fighting against gravity. This makes hide glue pretty different from working with aliphatic resin glues. Once spread, you can turn AR glue upside down, and it will stick to the workpiece. Hide glue has to be made really thick to accomplish that same stickiness. I vary the thickness, but I also try not to fight against gravity.

Third, this might be obvious, and I apologize if it is, but are you certain that the dry glue you are using is good quality glue, in good condition for general use? In other words, have you just tried doing a simple glue-up of two pieces of wood, using this glue, to test the glue itself? I would do that before messing with anything else.

Fourth, assuming the glue is good, don't throw out good processes while trying to solve problems. Heating the parts is good; clamping firmly is good; working with deliberate speed is good. Keep doing those things, but attack the specific problem at hand. You are probably winding up with a starved joint because all the glue winds up on your bench, the floor, or paper towels. So fix the problem of the glue not staying where it is useful, but keep doing all the other good stuff.

Fifth, no offense to Hesh, but if I were you, I would not let the answer to my problems be to abandon hide glue for this operation. There is something going on here, with this particular operation, that is vexing you, and you will get to the bottom of it if you keep trying. You probably won't feel right if you give up, so don't. Gluing blocks is actually not the hard part of how to use this glue, so you need to figure out this mystery, or it will be a bigger problem than you should have to deal with.



These users thanked the author doncaparker for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:49 am) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:38 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:44 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3384
Location: Alexandria MN
I am going with the clamps. The Irwin clamps in my experience are not that great either for getting good pressure or maintaining pressure.

Second, I agree with Hesh and others, end block joints are hard to get perfect as far as congruity. I see no advantage to hide there or for linings. I have always used LMI white when it was available and now Tightbond Extend.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.



These users thanked the author Terence Kennedy for the post (total 2): Hesh (Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:49 am) • bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:48 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I wonder too about the cleanup process. Here is what I’ve been doing so far:

1) After glueup wait about 3-4 minutes and cut the worms free using a sharpened popsicle stick.

2) Wipe the sides and the edge of the block with a dampened strip of shop towel. I try t stay out of the very corner of the joint with the shop towel because of how much water is in it.

3) Use Q tips dipped in the glue pot to clean up in the very corner of the joint. Again, trying not to get any dripping water directly in the joint.

Should I be waiting for steps #2 and #3 until the joint is fully set up? Maybe waiting an hour or two?

Brad




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:08 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3260
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Nothing wrong with your cleanup process. However, rather than using a soaking Q-tip, I use a damp rag wrapped around a sharp stick to get the corners. This minimizes water getting into the joint which may be an issue in your setup.



These users thanked the author Barry Daniels for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:26 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:03 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:04 pm
Posts: 315
First name: Andy
Status: Professional
If there is adequate glue on these pieces, there is no way there is glue starvation from clamp pressure with Irwin grip clamps. Impossible as those clamps are mediocre at best when it comes to clamp pressure. When applying any emulsion-based glue, I prefer to rub the parts together and ensure complete coverage. Maybe I'm assuming incorrectly that the OP has sufficient glue in the joint. From his posts, he seems pretty thorough - I suspect the issue is the Irwin clamps. I simply would not use them for most any guitar clamping task. The fact that they inherently loosen after applying pressure makes them a complete wildcard.

No offense intended on the clamp observations ... as I said, I use Irwin clamps for various tasks around the shop. But just to be thorough, let me respond specifically to the OP's 4 points:

Quote:
1) Should I do away with heating the parts before glue up? Could that be causing an issue?

No, this simply gives more open time on the glue. I warm my parts with either a hot plate or a hair dryer. Just provides a bit of open time insurance.
Quote:
2) Should I perhaps wait just a few seconds after brushing the glue on before clamping up? I’m experiencing a lot of squeeze out and glue running during clamp up. Maybe waiting just a beat for the glue to thicken before trying to clamp up?

Unless you are superman, there is no way you didn't wait a few seconds from when you brushed the glue on one piece, then another piece, then set the brush down, then picked up the first clamp, clamped that, then the second clamp, et cetera ...
Quote:
3) Could the bar clamps be starving the joint?

Not possible with those Irwin clamps, as previously mentioned.
Quote:
4) Maybe try a thicker glue ratio?

You're mixture ratio is in good company. If it is good enough for Frank Ford and Milligan & Higgins, it's going to be fine for the rest of us.

I hope this is helpful to you. Good news is you are using hide glue. Wipe the wood clean with hot water on a damp cloth pad, so there is no glue ridges anywhere. Go through your process again, using screw clamps. I suspect your problem will be solved. Let us know ...

Just one other thought ... I'd make sure your glue is as hot as you think it is (around 140-150) ... just to be safe. You should be fine on the glue-up, but feel free to keep things warm with a hair dryer if you are concerned about the glue cooling off before you get full clamp pressure.

Andy



These users thanked the author AndyB for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:46 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:51 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:33 pm
Posts: 169
First name: David
Last Name: Riedmiller
State: WI
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
bcombs510 wrote:
Rocky Road wrote:
Brad
I was taught to make “intimate contact” between glue surfaces the goal to achieve a good bond.
So I am looking for smooth surfaces to maximize contact on the glue surfaces. Is your caul on the outside of the ribs a very tight fit? If so you don’t need any padding between the caul and the ribs. Is the lack of bond where you used the additional caul? Again I’m just thinking out loud as to possibilities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for thinking it through. The caul is a good fit for the blocks. They were made using the same template / jig.

Image

For the sides they were sanded to 220. The block was only sanded to 80 coming off the disc sander. Would you take that to 220 as well? The surface looked pretty good off the sander, but of course it could be improved from 80 grit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brad.l I would sand or better yet scrape the block smooth. That helps
maximize glue area. I also would clamp your caul last.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
"It is easier to fool a man, than it is to convince him that he has been fooled"
Mark Twain



These users thanked the author Rocky Road for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:01 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:06 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Rocky Road wrote:
bcombs510 wrote:
Rocky Road wrote:
Brad
I was taught to make “intimate contact” between glue surfaces the goal to achieve a good bond.
So I am looking for smooth surfaces to maximize contact on the glue surfaces. Is your caul on the outside of the ribs a very tight fit? If so you don’t need any padding between the caul and the ribs. Is the lack of bond where you used the additional caul? Again I’m just thinking out loud as to possibilities.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for thinking it through. The caul is a good fit for the blocks. They were made using the same template / jig.

Image

For the sides they were sanded to 220. The block was only sanded to 80 coming off the disc sander. Would you take that to 220 as well? The surface looked pretty good off the sander, but of course it could be improved from 80 grit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brad.l I would sand or better yet scrape the block smooth. That helps
maximize glue area. I also would clamp your caul last.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks. A question - The way I have been clamping the rims into the mold is that the soundboard side is flush with the mold and the “guitar back” side is sticking up past the mold. The “guitar back” side is where the caul is used.

When installing the block with the mold soundboard side down on the bench it is very easy to then place the block so it is flat against the bench. Then you know for sure it is aligned with the rims and everything is flush on the soundboard side.

What would be the process to then clamp that side first? I would think it would be very easy to get the blocked skewed a bit if it wasn’t being “pushed” down to the bench.

Do you put the mold in the center of the rims so there is some protruding from both the soundboard side and the “guitar back” side? Or perhaps just line it up flush and with your center line by hand and clamp away?

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:09 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Andy, I’m going to try the Bessie clamps. I have a few already of the 12” with 3 1/2” jaws. They are heavy!

I keep a thermometer in the pot. I guess I could check the thermometer against a second one. :)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:26 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Durango CO
First name: Dave
Last Name: Farmer
City: Durango
State: CO
The thin piece of clamped scrap holds the block on center. On top of the block is a go bar.
There is a block that screws across the mold joint to make it as tall as the block for gluing.
Attachment:
IMG_0164.JPG

Attachment:
IMG_0163.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by david farmer on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author david farmer for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:47 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:49 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:04 pm
Posts: 315
First name: Andy
Status: Professional
bcombs510 wrote:
Andy, I’m going to try the Bessie clamps. I have a few already of the 12” with 3 1/2” jaws. They are heavy!

I keep a thermometer in the pot. I guess I could check the thermometer against a second one. :)

Nope. Sounds like your temperature is good. So long as you are clamping up before the glue sets, it is definitely the clamps in my book.

Andy



These users thanked the author AndyB for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:49 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:57 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
david farmer wrote:
The thin piece of clamped scrap holds the block on center. On top of the block is a go bar.
There is a block that screws across the mold joint to make it as tall as the block for gluing.ImageImage

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk


Thanks, Dave. The pics help a ton. In the first pic it looks like the clamp is more toward the middle of the block. So you’re thinking here is to put the first clamp more toward the middle and then flip the mold so that the clamps on the soundboard side are installed first and then the side with the caul, like RR suggests above?

The shim is a nice touch.

I have the LMI molds that are MDF and have the big hinge with the PVC stopper. I’ll have to think about how I could concoct a block / caul like you have here.

Appreciate it!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:10 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:13 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Durango CO
First name: Dave
Last Name: Farmer
City: Durango
State: CO
bcombs510 wrote:
david farmer wrote:
The thin piece of clamped scrap holds the block on center. On top of the block is a go bar.
There is a block that screws across the mold joint to make it as tall as the block for gluing.
Attachment:
IMG_0163.JPG
Attachment:
IMG_0164.JPG




Thanks, Dave. The pics help a ton. In the first pic it looks like the clamp is more toward the middle of the block. So you’re thinking here is to put the first clamp more toward the middle and then flip the mold so that the clamps on the soundboard side are installed first and then the side with the caul, like RR suggests above?

The shim is a nice touch.

I have the LMI molds that are MDF and have the big hinge with the PVC stopper. I’ll have to think about how I could concoct a block / caul like you have here.

Appreciate it!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The pics are years old but you probably have it right.
Even more so with titebond, I have a habit of clamping lightly with the first clamp. If you let the pieces slowly displace the glue and come together, they tend to stay lined up until they grab. If you clamp hard on a thick glue line, you get a strong sideways skating force.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by david farmer on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author david farmer for the post: bcombs510 (Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:38 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 3571
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Here is a side by side comparison of glue that I used for the block in question and the patented br549 glue recipe that Mr Farmer shared. My glue mix (1.8 / 1) is on the right. Mr Farmers patented formula (45g / 25g) is on the left.

The volume was different between the containers so I tried to dip the sticks in the same amount so they picked up similar amounts of glue.

Edited: Mr Farmers mix is about the same as mine (math is hard).

So....

1) Is this a thick enough mix?
2) Does the flow rate look correct for these mix ratios or do I have a bad batch of glue (or a bad scale

http://youtu.be/K3aRAScluCQ

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hide glue issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:59 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13370
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
bcombs510 wrote:
Here is a side by side comparison of glue that I used for the block in question and the patented br549 glue recipe that Mr Farmer shared. My glue mix (1.8 / 1) is on the right. Mr Farmers patented formula (45g / 25g) is on the left.

The volume was different between the containers so I tried to dip the sticks in the same amount so they picked up similar amounts of glue.

Edited: Mr Farmers mix is about the same as mine (math is hard).

So....

1) Is this a thick enough mix?
2) Does the flow rate look correct for these mix ratios or do I have a bad batch of glue (or a bad scale

http://youtu.be/K3aRAScluCQ


Brad Buddy I can't tell much from the video but one of you guys are pregnant.....:)



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: bcombs510 (Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:32 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com