Official Luthiers Forum!

Here's a reality check thread:

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45044&hilit=making+a+living+building+guitars#p595737

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Okay...! Well.... This was some very tough reality check

I do have a day job that pays the bills (which is good ) and I don't intend to quit soon.

For me this is a dream born out of my love for guitars and the fact that there is no known guitar maker or company in my country (which is sad ) despite the fact that we consume a lot of this product (which comes from china mainly... and most of them are poorly mass produced)

I wouldn't even mind having a guitar company like Yamaha for example (or any established small scale guitar manufacturer) come to my country to build these things locally... Its a venture I'll gladly partner with.

There is a demand in my country for well built guitars. (who knows, one of you might eventually decide to try business in my part of Africa )

But for me, I "hope" to be able to have a small scale manufacturing company that mass produces neatly built guitars. I know I don't have to make these things by hand eventually, but I just need to learn how its painstakingly built before going for the power tools like the CNC routers and all...


Its a venture I believe should bring good returns as long as I make something better than what is easily obtainable in our markets (which should be easy to do cos our music markets are filled with poorly built guitars from China).
Disclaimer: I know the Chinese make good stuff too.

Anyways, thanks a bunch for that thread... it was an eye opener. I need to do some more careful research.

Curious as to what you would be bringing to the table?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

You keep mentioning that the guitars that are built in China are "poorly built" which makes me want to beg to differ.

I'm a working-in-the-trade/pro Luthier who works in a very busy dedicated repair shop that repairs over 1,000 instruments, guitars, mandos, and some banjos... annually. We see lots of guitar from China and considering what these offerings sell for I would estimate the value that they offer to be actually quite high...

50 years ago when I was a beginning guitar player my options where a very few US built offerings with beginner pricing that were in most cases terrible instruments. From Silvertones with action high enough to use to slice hard boiled eggs to the plethora of Chicago built offerings which were also often unplayable out of the gate our choices back then sucked.

These days for $150 a new player can purchase a Chinese built instrument that will sound 80% as good as a $1,000 guitar, will play as well or better from the f*ctory...., and will last 20 years or so before the unserviceability of the neck joint likely ends the things useful life. I'll add that in the case of Yamaha these entry level guitars likely will withstand abuse better than very high priced instruments because Yamaha has been using some level of torifaction to season the plates for years now.

That's some real value to me and because the price of entry is actually lower considering inflation from 50 years ago not only is it real value it's also lowered the price of entry into playing or learning to play guitar and that's a good thing for all of us.

Bottom line here is that some of the Chinese offerings may be inexpensive but they can be well made to the point that it often makes me wonder what the problem is with some of the mid level and even Luthier... built instruments when a $150 Chinese offering can provide the level of value that they do over time and for very.... little.... money. We also these days have higher priced Chinese offerings that are also considered excellent values, Blueridge comes to mind.

In a nutshell competing with entry level Chinese instruments is likely impossible without a very low or no.... labor costs.

I read that you also know that the Chinese make good stuff too and I appreciate this and agree completely.

I'm not in the habit of defending cheap imports but in all honesty when I was 9 years old I would have greatly preferred to have today's $150 Yamaha over my $49 Silverstone egg slicer...

Lastly as someone who makes their living from Lutherie this is no easy slog believe me... It's fun and well suited for folks who have made their mark in the world but the best way to make a million dollars with Lutherie is to start with two million dollars...

Builders and even manufacturers rarely do well.... and the reality is that folks come and go from the trade every day having tried and failed after they lose their souls banging their heads against the wall selling to friends and family until that avenue is exhausted.

I know this is not what some will like to hear but it's a reality for some, not all.... that I hear about frequently as we learn often of yet someone else who started out building leaving the trade.

If you know anything about cost accounting AND when you know a great deal about guitar building the economics are simply not there. There is a reason why the couple dozen or so A and B listers who do make their living from Lutherie building charge $6K and up - they have to....

Now estimate what the market will be in Nigeria for $6K instruments AND if the climate is appropriate for fine wooden instruments with very thin plates and then you will have some idea if this idea, producing guitars in Nigeria, may be successful. I'd also be estimating what the middle class will bear where you are in terms of pricing and ability to pay these prices which would be key to any decision to production anything anywhere as well.

Lastly perhaps there is a reason why the Chinese are not currently in Nigeria since they tend to be opportunists as well? It could be that the numbers won't work....

By the way I keep getting these emails from Nigeria offering me thousands if I deposit thousands too..... Such a deal....

Interesting post.

First of all, considering that you're a professional in the business, I'll like to choose my words carefully...

You sure do know a lot about the business, and yes, truly, if not for China, my people won't be able to afford cheap guitars (which I must also admit is pretty good for the price).

As a Nigerian, I can tell you my people do business a lot with China, and we get fairly good deals most of the time. But the point here is, I know there is a market for well built high end guitars (they don't have to be as expensive as what I find on the internet being built by some master Luthiers).

Also, I'm looking at making cheap guitars with locally sources materials (with attention paid to details, which is the problem with most of the made in china guitars I find in the market here)


Lastly, Everyone needs to be careful when doing business online... There are fraudsters everywhere: In America, In Malaysia, In Nigeria.. everywhere.

But honestly, I appreciate this forum, I've learned a lot in a few hours! Amazing! Thanks to everyone.

A lot really... A factory space, some finance, and most importantly, an understanding of the Nigerian market, government policies, people etc
More on the logistics part (ofcourse I can't build guitars yet )

I think it would be exciting to see a guitar building start up in an emerging economy, as Nigeria has. Rather than blindly copy what the Chinese have done - cloning the old standard designs, I think you should build something with a distinctly African identity. Again, because I think it is easier to get things right, starting with solidbody electric guitars and basses I think is the way to go. There is a lesser need for environmental control (humidity) and skilled and experienced workers.Two makers whose histories you might study are Leo Fender and Paul Reed Smith.
Good luck with your venture.

Thanks Clay.
I agree its easier and way better for me to focus on solid body electric guitars for now. I hope things play out well. I'm willing to explore with other creative minds here in my country to see what we come up with.
Hopefully, I'll share pictures on this forum and get some more guidance.

Thanks guys

I missed the part about you wanting to build factory guitars. That's a totally different thing. I think the advice you got was good that you should contact this local factory owner who is retiring. If you could set up a meeting with him it would be very helpful to say the least. I've bounced around with the idea with a forester and plantation owner in Costa Rica for a small time guitar factory and we sort of left it on the table for now. It's quite an interesting set up actually as everything would literally be locally sourced from right there on the plantation(s). They build furniture and modular 'homes', more like huts really, right now and are constantly looking for ways to use the forestry products. If I ever retire from my day job and move to Costa Rica then it's something I would consider doing. By then the mahogany and cocobolo trees will be fully grown too But it's a daunting project to go from small hobby type guitar building to a factory setting. It's not really guitar making at that point but rather business systems dynamics and manufacturing of widgets. Still pretty cool though.

As I've said here before, and to countless clients, the difference between a business and a dream/hobby/pastime is tha a business requires People to Pay You Money for your Goods.

As Hesh correctly pointed out, in the US economy a small shop/single luthier needs to sell guitars at $6k a piece, and find enough people to buy as many of those guitars as he or she can reasonable produce.

Many people on this forum can produce guitars of high enough quality to sell for $6k, but can't find 15 people or so a year to sell them to.

That market is relatively small and fully served by existing luthiers. There is little room for new luthiers.

If your price point is a wholesale $1250, you find yourself chasing your tail until between 30-50 instruments a month. Again, in the US you will note there are few luthiers who fall between. At 50+ a month you have Santa Cruz, Collins, Huss & Dalton, etc.

I have the capital, knowledge and skill to set up a shop that produces 50 mid grade acoustics a month, but not the market.

The next step up is Taylor that mass produces 30,000 guitars a year. That is literally tens of millions of dollars in capital and an army of marketing experts trying to beat back competition from government subsidized Chineese production.

These numbers are meaningless to you in Nigeria. However, the analysis is the same. What is your target price point? How many guitars would you have to sell to cover the overhead of producing the guitars and making a reasonable return on your investment? Can you find a market that will absorb that many guitars at that price point?

If you have that all worked out, figuring out the equipment is best done by visiting several similar sized factories and talking to floor managers. This site is full of great knowledge, but the focus Is definitely more on the single luthier and even hobby builder.


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Great post rlrhett!

Intelligently written rlrhett...

I'm working on a business proposal which I wouldn't mind sharing with anyone in this forum who might be interested in studying it.

I'm open to constructive criticism.

I'll try to run through some advantages I should have and some disadvantages too.

Pros:
1) In Nigeria at the moment, there is no known Luthier.

2) There is no guitar production factory - big or small.
*in fact, we're an import dependent country. Our major export (crude) is no longer exchanging for good value for obvious reasons*

3) My government is keen on supporting small and medium scale investors who are willing to grow our manufacturing industry.

*policies are being implemented to make importation more expensive in other to encourage local production*

4) We have a reasonable population of consumers.
*which might also include neighbouring African countries who depend on us for a whole lot*

5) We have untapped raw materials (wood/trees) needed to make guitars.

6) Labour is relatively cheap.

And the list goes on...

Cons:

1) Unstable power supply

2) Poor road networks in some areas

3) Poor security detail in some areas

4) Existing Chinese made guitars sell at outrageously cheap prices and are pretty good value.

And a few others...

I'm actually not looking at making acoustic guitars that will sell for over a thousand dollars... nah

I want to make neatly mass produced and affordable guitars that can possibly induce the government to encourage local production thereby creating the much needed jobs in my country.

It's saddening that NO guitar manufacturing happens here at the moment and I know this isn't rocket science.

I don't expect not to have challenges, I'm simply trying to face them head on.

During much of my career I was charged with planning, designing, and starting up manufacturing and assembly centers from single operations to entire factories. While the goal to efficiently mass produce high quality products may not be "rocket science" I can assure you that it is indeed a science. An acoustic guitar takes about 60 man hours with manual methodology, about 15 hrs using high tech processes. So depending on decisions made regarding method, processes and technology, total time required and necessary capital investment balance can fall anywhere. Now the big secret for success if you will, was/is that when setting up a process, the rule of thumb is to copy the best --- eliminating R&D costs plus knowing it will work right from the start.

So the suggestion to travel the world and view the facilities of others is spot on --- great advice.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

We have the market here

And thanks a bunch for your post. I got a lot of much needed info.

I totally agree with the advice and I hope to visit such a factory before this year runs out.
I was in Europe last year (Denmark precisely) for my vacation but didn't know where I could find a small guitar production factory of that sort.
If its not too much to ask, judging from your wealth of experience, is there a factory in the USA you can recommend that I model? if yes, can I have any detail about them. (The company has to be making solid body electric guitars, as that is what I hope to start with)
I'm hoping to visit the USA this year if I can get a good reason to.
I do have some more questions to ask you and I would love to write you via email to ask these questions if you don't mind.

Thanks again

I am sure others will have suggestions regarding which factories to visit -- while I am able to occasionally drop what may be a helpful nugget on the forum, sorry I really do not want any further involvement in your project -- hope you understand.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I understand. Thanks

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I took the full tour. Worth it! Thanks

Hello House,

I've been away for quite a while working on the idea of setting up a guitar factory here in Nigeria and trying to get local investors who will be willing to partner with me to get this business running.

However, there has been challenges, especially for someone in a country where this has never been done.

Considering the current economic situation in Nigeria, this is arguably the perfect time for foreign investors to cash in on this opportunity and setup local manufacturing factories to make guitars or any other item for that matter in Nigeria. Nigeria is a mono economy - depending solely on oil export for foreign revenue, we have little or no other foreign exports and we are an import dependent economy. Based on this fact, the dollar rate affects literally everything we do in the country and the few local manufacturers are making a lot of money due to the exchange rate which limits foreign imports.

So whats my point exactly?

Considering the current dollar rate, The average Nigerian can no longer afford to buy imported guitars. Other neighboring African countries depend on us for a whole lot, and if we ca't afford it, they can't as well. This is therefore the best time to have a company making affordable guitars locally.

We have most of the raw material needed to make guitars in the country. We also have a government that is willing to support foreign investors.
Labor is cheap right now giving the current economic realities and Foreign investors will be needing a fewer amount in Dollars to setup (a thousand dollars now equals roughly half a million Naira).

This is an open call to whoever on this forum that might be interested in partnering with us to setup a guitar factory here in Nigeria, I can assure the investor that whatever monies put in will be recovered with astounding interest over time (Please google MTN Nigeria as a case study... They were the first telecom company to come into Nigeria and today, Nigeria is their biggest market).

I and my team will be willing to provide further information to any interested foreign investor. Also, I will be willing to pay a personal visit to the interested party and/or invite the party to Nigeria for a feasibility study. I will also be willing to give out information that proves my integrity as an entity (I understand a few people might have questions and doubts).

You may respond here, or write me personally via email: ogbonnaikennap@gmail.com

Thanks you all.

I know I will burn in forum hell, but I cannot resist...

Please transfer the expected profits I will receive when the Nigerian prince resolves his cash flow due to difficulties with resolving his (oil exports/ bond transfers/family jewels) issues to help you fund the burgeoning guitar industry in your country.

No offense, but I am sure you see the humor in requests for cash coming from your country.
Good luck.

You sure are entitled to your opinion.
And I would probably react in a similar way if I were in your shoes....

But again, if you have the resources, you may go ahead and think of doing this business here in Nigeria. You really don't need me or any other Nigerian. Its a worthy venture.

And by the way, This was not a request for cash.

God bless.

Just an observation, and not meaning to be arguementative, but does seem to imply money changing hands at some stage.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Wishing you the best of luck, but using a telecom company as a comparative to guitar manufacturing success is not realistic. I'm sure everyone in Nigeria who doesn't already have it, would like to have a phone/cell phone/internet access, but how many want a guitar? Enough to keep a domestic factory running for the long term?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer to invest in my own dreams, not in someone else's. I am rather conservative, though.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Well, you do have a point...Nigeria won't be the only market here anyway. But again, its just my own dream...

I'm also tempted to shed more light on the opportunities that exist for members of this forum:

1) If anyone on this forum decides to start a guitar making school or run a program/course on guitar making, you'll be making a lot of money because we don't have any in this part of Africa, and young people are looking out for entrepreneurial programs and opportunities.

2) If anyone starts a professional guitar training institute, that will also have a huge market because there is none in this part of Africa

What's in it for me right?

I just want to attract businesses I'm interested in to my country and create the much needed jobs. I'm certain the markets in America and other "developed" countries are near saturated, but its a fertile soil here in Nigeria/Africa.