Official Luthiers Forum!

I would be happy if someone took me in as an apprentice... no matter what the condition might be.

It's all about doing what you really want to do. You can spend your whole life working at jobs that you really don't want to do, but the only reason you worked there is because of either money or prestige (Asians do this a lot), or you can do what you really want to do irrespective of the wage you earn.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I dont think Chris Pile's apprenticeship structure was unfair at all. It was certainly not aimed at most of us on this forum since most of us have children and a spouse. And at minimum, we all have bills to pay that wont disappear for a year. But if you were 17, or 18 and living at home and loved to build guitars, it is a no brainer.
I often wish I had discovered guitar building when I was much younger, but I didnt, and I am only 38. However, if I had, and I lived in Kansas, I would have jumped at the opportunity to learn with an experienced luthier. There is no substitute for a good teacher and you can not buy experience. You can not even put a price on the one to one guidance an apprentice would get working side by side with Chris. What does the short lutherie course at Red Rocks cost? Do you get constant one to one instruction there?
Cumpiano charges $5,000 for a two week class. If Chris Pile charged a commensurate fee, the one year "course" would cost $130,000, but he taught it for free. Actually, he lost money when he taught as he pointed out.
Looks like a pretty decent deal to me when you think of it this way. If you just look at it as slave labor and disregard the amount you learn for free, it looks pretty lousy, but it is a bargain in my opinion.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Dee
I spent 8 years and my parents and I spent about 200K to be able to hang out my veterinary shingle. Vet school expected me to go to class, study, be on call and stay overnight on alternate nights....they didn't pay me...I paid them. (and believe me, a vet's income isn't commesurate with that level of investment). School/learning properly is time-consuming and expensive. Cliche' maybe, but if it's easy (or cheap) anybody could do it.

Build and repair in your free time (after all, you say you love it. Why not make it your hobby as you learn), and study or work towards a better than crappy job to support your hobby. Then, as you learn and get better, your hobby can become a jobby (hobby that pays a little along the way), and finally, you'll have a proper stake to go off and be a luthier. But if luthiery doesn't work out for you, doing it this way allows you to work at something better than a crappy job.

Good luck. You'll get there if you really want it, but there are gonna be a lot of dues to pay along the way!

Sorry, that response should have been sent for "Thomas" not Dee

Chris's scheme sounds like a bargain to me... think about it. In the UK there are maybe two full time courses that you can go on that last maybe 3 years - and you have to pay. Other options are the short 4 week courses etc that charge $8000 or so + you have to add your accommodation and subsistence to this...

Sure, as already pointed out, Chris's scheme is impossible to do if already in a position where you have responsibilty for family and bills etc, but its not aimed at those folk, but designed to push and test the committment and ..TEACH....

I like many, who love this as a hobby, have dreams of doing it full time ...without the financial challenge this would bring! ... and also daydream and ask the 'what -if' question had I done this at 17/18 ...some 23 years ago...where would I be now? Depends on any talent that may or may not have realised its potential... who knows, not even sure the talent is there... afterall it requires so many skills - not only mastering the the woodworking skills, but mastering the mysteries of the 'tonal' variables - and building instruments that not only look perfect but have a sound that appeals to a broard range of players...

Dont want to put you off if you want to go for it... but a deal like Chris' is actually VERY GOOD.

I like the sound of Chris' apprenticeship model as well. I was fortunate to have a similar opportunity with a violin maker many years ago. About those hours, the sit down meal was once a month at Denny's, but I did get a can of beans for lunch every day, not heated, just an opened can. However after a few months when I was competent at rehairs, I got half of the rehair $$. At least that paid gas to get to the shop. I was single and it was a good time for me to do that, I also got some family support. Although I did not get into violin repair, I did learn alot and now that I am back for some lutherie time, I am remembering what I learned.

_________________
http://shastaguitar.com/
http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

Wow. Thanks for all the support, guys.

To fill in the gaps (should anyone care), my first apprentice was a natural, but he thought it would be exciting. He found out color sanding finishes between coats and polishing frets wasn't so fun. Too bad, because his skills were stellar! He quit after 5 months.

My second was an eager and motivated young fellow who got a young lady pregnant and had to get a real job. He almost completed the year.

My third was a troubled kid, but he was searching for a way out of the stupor of his college drinking and doping habits. He soon appreciated the rigor and stability of the environment I created for him. Honest to goodness... his mother called and thanked me "for getting him to use a fork when he ate"!
I guess he had some rebellion issues to work out. Anyway, he completed the course and worked another 18 months for me before entering the ministry. He is now married with kids, and thanks me for my guidance every time we speak.

I also had a young man ask for a job right after graduating from Red Wing Vo-Tech's luthiery program, and while I would love to have a skilled and knowledgeable guy in the shop - he was married with two kids. He found a great job in town working for the school district repairing their violin family instruments, and we became good friends!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I think that an opportunity to work with someone of Chris' stature would be something that I would jump at, if I were younger, and local to him. You can learn a lot from books, videos and from the wealth of combined knowledge at the OLF, but to actually see someones hands at work, and to hear the same thing that they hear, is worth more than money, to or from, your pocket. Learning how to use and make tools, dealing with clients, and the business aspect of luthery would be invaluable.
No money for a 36 hour week shouldn't be a problem for a young person. You should have enough energy to put in 20 plus hours/week at a part time job for spending money, or acquiring your own tools and materials. We all went to school and had part time jobs. How is this any different?
Apprenticeships in other trades often start with very low wages, and if a job is heavy, dirty or mind-numbingly tedius, guess who gets it? Sweeping and tidying a shop and preping materials sounds boring but it something that needs to be learned, and it isn't back breaking.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Maybe I should have said " .... like Chris, who has some stature...." instead. I guess I gave Filippo a chance to lob one at a friend, though! nyuk nyuk nyuk!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I don't know about stature, but at my age I've got plenty of girth....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Those stories are great Chris... for me I at that young age, I might have struggled a bit as I was unsure at the time what to do - had doen well academically so University and a biology degree was teh first stop, but then what? 18 years in a Pharma market consulting environment later... I wish I could have told that young lad to think a little less about 'career' and more about 'vocation' - but it has at least given me a reasonably secure position for my family and finally allowed me to converty the basement into a nice shop... but you cant help thinking .... you mention a good point about talent, maybe for many thats the scary thing, how do you know you have enough, and could you get over any issues there with graft and sweat?...

After playing for 25 years, back in 2006, by pure chance, I was introduced to a well known Classical builder, David Whiteman (recently restored an 1833 Martin, which was featured in various magazines, as well as having restored several Torres etc, so a highly skilled and really nice guy), who was previously a lecturer and teacher at the London School of Furniture, where he taught instrument making... so he had those teaching skills as well. I started going 2 or 3 times a month for 2 hour sessions with the intention of building just one guitar - I had found a nice piece of flamed Macassar and as the intention was to only build one, might as well build something different... Under David's guidance, It turned out quite well, not perfect, but happy with the result... and was hooked!


So I continued going and started the next one... the difficult second, which is still not finished, and a classical 3rd.... the point is I pay for these sessions, just like I would if it was 'learning to play' the instrument, rather than building.... and I am more than happy with that. I think the comments that criticise the 'no-pay' deal, are perhaps looking at it from their personal perspectives - eg, Like me have a family to support and a mortgage to pay, so a year with no pay would be impossible for us.... but if you really want something, there are always ways - even if my 'apprenticship' will probably never end!

The question is, what does one do to get a job in luthiery, if you don't need apprenticeship because you already have the skills?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

at that point open your own shop. Start small and work part time. That is how I did it and many others that I know.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

What if there are absolutely no market for luthier stuff in your country?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

There is a growing market for high end guitars in your neck of the woods. You may be one of the pioneers. If you don't try, you'll never know… In any case, the world is wide.

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Indeed! And the market of classical guitars in Taiwan is no doubt much smaller than those of SS or ukes.

Wait a minute! I thought Tai Fu has moved to Germany?

I am in the process of moving to Germany. However, moving to a country isn't as simple as "pack up and move". Immigration is a nightmare to deal with.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Before you set up in business Tai, I would suggest changing your company name from "Fretwank Guitars" to something a little less "out there".....just my 2c....ignore by all means.

Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Well some make it and some don't. Simple eh.

Me?... well if it feels good, turns me on, or catches me interest... then me down on it and right now me down on loofering real big time.

Old Poem

You want.
I want.
You want what I want,
I'll make you very very happy,
You don't want what I want,
I'll exhaust you to get what you want,
but in the end,
I'll still get what I want.

Lotta wanna bees

So to the OP
If this loofering stuff is the true song in your heart,
you will find a way with or with out our help.

good luck to you.

blessngs
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Wow!...... my prayer list is much shorter than many of yours.

I just hope to retire one day with a big pile of good wood, a shop, and knowledge I've gained from good folks like all of you.