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Both sitka and Adirondack spruce are noted for having wide dynamic ranges, especially for having lots of headroom - responding to hard playing with more volume rather than "breaking up". Those of you who've played steel string guitars with either Lutz or Euro spruce tops, what do you think of them in this regard? Would you recommend either of these top woods for a guitar that will be used primarily for flatpicking, and sometimes driven fairly hard?

Thanks!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, at our Tampa Area get together, Ken Hodges gave us the lowdown on his guitars. Ken builds a lot of dreads for the Bluegrass crowd and his favorite top by far was Lutz. Gave him the sound he was looking for. Maybe he'll chime in with more details.

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Jim Womack

"Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for. "
Will Rogers

Guys I'd be interested in what opinions people have over different spruces, I recently bought a sitka top and was amazed how loose it was across the grain compared to the Central European Spruce I'd used previously I doubt I'm gonna use it, and at the moment I've left it where I do my evening classes, but actually I'm not too bothered if it doesn't turn up!

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Todd, I will start off by saying that every tidbit of this post is personal opinion and conjecture and I have absolutely nothing that I can prove except for you to play one of my guitars and decide for yourself. With that said, I have found that Lutz spruce combined with sitka bracing is one of the most versitile combinations I have come up with yet. I have built with just about every spruce known to man, and by far the lutz is the one that pleases me (and my customers) more than anything. I cant explain what the sitka bracing has to do with it, but it does make a difference. Lutz spruce combined with lutz bracing doesnt give me the full range of overtones I am looking for.

I usually thin my tops just to the point where I feel them start to give a little in a cross grain flex and then build with them. I end up sanding quite a bit more by hand and usually thin the edges even further due to sanding the purfling and bindings, so it is thinner on the outer edges than it is in the center bridge area.

It most definitely has a lot of headroom when this combination is used.

Hope this helps?

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Reguards,

Ken H

John, unless I read it wrong, sitka is more prone to becoming floppy across the grain when cut a little off quarter. In any case all spruce shows this to some extent. I just thinned a lower grade Lutz which is a little offquarter. It really feels rubbery across the grain while along the grain it is excellent and just a stiff as some perfect cut master grade I have from the same batch.
Not sure what to do with it, perhaps an X braced steelstring prototype using my classical guitar mold (pseudo 00-21?)

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Build log

Ken,

Have you only used the Lutz on Dreadnaught sized guitars or have you also tried it on 000/OM sizes? If so, any suprises?

Who carries Lutz?......I'm not familiar with this species.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Our own Shane Neifer (sp?) of High Mountain Tonewood. A great guy to deal with, great service and products.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Most people with lots of experience dealing with tonewood will usually tell you that generalizing about these products of nature is pretty tough to do, and that differences between individual pieces tend to be more important than differences between species.

I'm staying out of this discussion, I will say though, that I have made guitars that work well for flat picking with both Euro and Lutz spruce.

Here is what Dana Bourgeois has to say about differences between some of the woods most commonly used in luthierie.

http://www.pantheonguitars.com/tonewoods.htm

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Ken, thanks for sharing your experience. I do hope to have the opportunity to play a guitar or two of yours at some point. I wish I could do that today, but alas...

Arnt, thanks for your input, and your point is well taken and understood. Here's where I stand at the moment. I have sitka, lutz, and Euro spruce in my inventory. I selected all of these tops myself when I bought them; since I select for certain qualities of feel and sound (consciously, and, to some degree, subconsciously, I'm sure), and these particular tops have all made it through the filter of my hands and ears, they are very similar to each other. If I were to attempt to select from these based on my own perception of the qualities of the individual pieces, with the goal of making a guitar with high headroom, I would be stumped - there's nothing that distinguishes one from another in terms of stiffness or tap tone response that would lead me to choose one over another. Admittedly, that probably reflects my current level of experience as much as the fact that these are tops that I already selected, but there it is. Anyway, the point is, given that these particular tops are pre-selected, as it were, it seems to me that the way each species tends to perform (which, perhaps, reflects properties I am unable to discern by flexing, tapping, weighing, and measuring) should be relevant to my final selection for the guitar I'm beginning on right now.

I have not yet built with lutz or Euro. Ultimately, I will draw my own conclusions, but in the meantime, the input from others on their experience with these species (I had already read Dana's essay, but thanks for the link) may help me make a successful choice for this guitar.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

IMHO overdriving a top is more a function of stifness/thickness/bracing equation. Even a soft Englemann top can be left thick enough and braced accordingly to take flatpicking without distorting, although it would probably defeat the purpose. Species choice is usually guided by the tone seeked, and exceptions abound. A stiff Sitka set would be a good beginning for a direct, fundamental tone…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Todd,

I've built a half dozen guitars with Lutz, in body sizes from dreds to OM's to 00's. To my ear, Lutz sounds more like first growth adirondack than anything else. What I mean by that is new guitars, properly voiced with Lutz tops, sound more like old guitars with adi tops than any other top material (even most of the currently available adi). The second growth adirondack that is commonly available, at least to my ear, sounds considerably harsher than the old stuff. It does "loosen up" after a few years, but the Lutz guitars are good "right out of the box".

Generally speaking, I work Lutz very much like Engelmann. I leave the tops a little on the thick side (~.120), thin the perimeter to ~.100 and lighten up my bracing (adi) a little. Even on dreds, never more than .5" at the intersection of the X and slightly less than that on the smaller bodies. These numbers work well for me in the sound I'm trying to produce. As always, YMMV.

I've used a variety of B&S woods with the Lutz, my favorite being BRW, but it's also very good with mahogany. The mahogany/Lutz combination gives a really crisp, clean sound (think prewar 18 series). Give it a try, I think you'll like it.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Todd,

Are the weights all similar? I would probably use the most dense piece for the most headroom. I have made one Lutz guitar (and one in the works now) and it sounds killer.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I agree with Ken about using Sitka for the braces. It's my brace wood spruce of preference, with Euro being my preference for the top. A good piece of Euro will let you get down to some very thin dimensions while still remaining very stiff. The sitka as brace wood has been the strongest in my experience. That's why I think thin/stiff Euro top + sitka braces is such a great combo. There's definitely some other ways of doing it too but this is what I've had good results with. I probably should have mentioned my experience is limited to archtops.

Thanks a lot for all the new replies on this thread.

Laurent, I'm inclined to agree with you that the overall stiffness of the braced, completed top is most likely the main factor in determining dynamic range at the upper end (headroom). Is it the only factor, though? In my mind, that's an open question. I really don't know the answer. In other words, I don't know that there may be something else about the properties of the various species, or of particular pieces of wood, that may have some effect on this.

Jimmy, thanks a lot for sharing your experience and your approach to working with Lutz. Very helpful, and much appreciated.

Burton, thanks for your thoughts. I have not yet calculated the densities of the selection of tops I'm considering for this guitar. I intend to do that, and that may help me make my choice.

Archtop, thanks for your helpful input as well.

I might go with Lutz and either Adirondack or sitka bracing. But then again, I also just pulled out a really nice bear claw sitka top that's whispering, "Use me!" It may have the best cross-grain stiffness of the bunch, and the tap tones are marvelous - just unbelievably bell-like, harmonically complex, and musical. Hmmm...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd I find it pretty difficult for me to generalize as well about the tone of various species although Adi to my ears does seem to provide more of an in-your-face tone ONCE opened up - but it also seems to take longer to open up.

But what might be helpful to you is to know that the Black Tiger that you played in Ann Arbor and heard others playing during the performances was Lutz.

Dana was quoted on this thread and I know that what he uses for his banjo killers is always bearclaw, stiff sitka left relatively thick and braced accordingly.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thanks, Hesh. Now I wish I could play that guitar again, drive it really hard, and see how it responds. I have a pretty good memory of how it sounded, but I didn't try testing its ceiling.

Laurent, thanks for that info on Dana's guitars. The thing is, I love banjos!

For this particular guitar, by the way, it's not so much that I want it to be especially loud per se, just that I want to be able to drive it hard at times, and to have it respond by getting louder and not distorting. It's a prototype of a new design, which I intend to keep for myself. I play about 75% of the time with a flatpick, I use a heavy pick, and I like to be able to really dig in at times - again, not so much to be LOUD or to kill banjos, but simply to use dynamics expressively.

As far as tone goes, well, I won't even try to describe the tone I'm after... I think I'd likely get a tone I'm happy with with any of these woods, but I'm tempted to try the lutz just to see what I get, because I haven't built with it yet. I don't have many Euro tops, and I think I'll save them for classicals. And then there's this particular bearclaw sitka top that keeps saying, "Pssst... hey, buddy! Use me!"

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hey Todd,

I talk to A LOT of people (very many high end makers, John Greven, Michael Greenfield, Kerry Char, Rob Ruck and others) about wood properties. I have discussed their thoughts on the general attributes of the different species and the conclusion I have come up with is as follows:

Engelmann is mostly used for flatpicking because there is a general "feeling" that it does not stand up well to being driven hard (although I agree with Laurent that I think you could build so that it does stand up)

Sitka is used mostly for flat picking as it does not have the dynamic voice of the other spruces but loves to be rode hard (again I think you can make it quite a singer as well, as long as you understand what you have)

Adi, well I have almost no experience with this wood and my customers call to find alternatives to adi.

Lutz and Euro are reported to me to be more dynamic and sonic, with more complex overtones. In bluegrass this would not likely be seen as a good thing but would be seen as being beneficial for most other music types. I have had reports (mostly from the likes of Greenfield and Greven) that lutz responds well to either pick or a light touch, you can use it to build both or you can expect good results by building a guitar for both (I hope you get the sublties of this comment!). Greven indicated to me that he and Greenfield build very different guitars, John building towards golden era Martin's and Mike a much more contemporary style but both saying that Lutz is their top wood of choice. John uses stiff dense Adi bracewood while Mike prefers lutz for the top braces and is now using WRC for the back braces.

Anyway, the only real way you are going to be able to tell is by building a few with each, or just pick one and fine tune it until you get the sound you want. One consideration though should be can you continue to get the wood that you invested your development time in? For example if you are using stiff bearclaw sitka, or an extra special piece of lutz or euro, can you still get that wood now that you have dialed in on the peices you have on hand?

Good luck Todd, we are looking forward to your results.

Shane

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Canada

Weight & stiffness will be the deciding factor in a tops responce to flatpicking.(or any picking)
I've used all the top woods mention & I love Lutz!!
It has a great weight to stiffness ratio.
At least the tops I've received from Shane are like this.

We have to avaluate each piece of wood we use for the desired tone or responce etc. we're after.
Then use our experience or record keeping to help us make the right decission .
But it's easier to drive a lite in weight top than a heavy one.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Todd,

Mike Collins is a great guy to discuss this stuff with as well (sorry for not mentioning you in the first response Mike ) He has built over 300 guitars in 30 years or so so has a good idea of what was, what is and what may be! He can do some knowledgable comparision on the finer points of each wood. And I think he will confirm what I said earlier, if you are looking for a very specific response from your top wood, just make sure you have a good supply or can get more when you need it. And that is not self promoting, you may choose euro or sitka and there are great producers of both, just get some assurance that you can continue to get more of what you have or at least understand what you will need to adjust if the wood is not always available.

Shane

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Canada

No problem Shane.

Todd do you have any Lutz?
If not I can send you one(with Shanes permission) since your so close !
And if you like it you can order some from Shane.

Let me know !
Mike

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Mike Collins

Is this place great, or what?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

It just doesn't get any better!!!
What an awsome community!

Thanks for your input, Shane and Mike! Very helpful.

Shane, your point about the ongoing availability of specific top woods is a very good one to consider. Thanks for calling my attention to that. And speaking of which, do you dare to go out on a limb, so to speak, and give us some projections on the ongoing availability of good lutz tops?

It's very interesting what you report about lutz in the hands of different makers. While I believe that is true to a large extent with any of the top woods, I certainly wouldn't presume to argue with those guys' suggestion that it's even more true with lutz. The intent of the new design I'm working on right now is to develop it into a very versatile guitar (it's sort of a "small jumbo", though I'm thoroughly annoyed by that phrase!). Maybe building the prototype with lutz would be a very good place to start.

(If I can just get that one bearclaw sitka top to sit quietly on the shelf and leave me alone! It's like an over-eager schoolboy who won't put down his hand. I can even hear him calling, "Pick me! Pick me!" from all the way up here in my office!)

Mike, I have a nice stack of lutz tops from Shane on my shelf, but thanks for the offer!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I totally agree. The stuff I got from Shane is identical in stiffness, weight and grain count to the (much pricier) Euro in my (small) stash.

German spruce with ~25 gpi uniform across the width costs 3 times Lutz, if you can find it. Mind you so far I only built 2 guitars one in lighter Italian spruce +cypress, another in Lutz+RW, and I made slight bracing style changes - I am in no position to comment on tone differences, but both guitars sound nice (for a 1st and a second that is )

Another thing to mention about Lutz is that the fibers are indeed long, it is virtually runout free, at least in the higher grade stuff I have from Shane, so I guess that makes more suited to heavy strings, as long as you beef up both top and bracing a little. I recently checked the "weight" of various steel strings sets, and it's amazing how much difference there is. Extra lights pull 61kg, lights 75, mediums 85, heavy 98! (Dad phosphor)) [The differences between nylon strings are much smaller, going from 35 to 40 Kg, or 37 to 44 depending on manufacturer (Dad or Hannabach)]

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Build log